Vault drop rates; violating policy with app stores on all platforms

Feature Requests and Game feedback
1

Continuing and highlighting a side discussion from another thread: No Heart of Rage Support Group - #34 by sls

What are the drop rates for the Vault?

Since vault keys can be purchased with real money, the rates need to be public as per the agreements with Google, Apple, Amazon, Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft.

Here’s Google Play Store’s policy: Payments - Play Console Help
Apps and games offering mechanisms to receive randomized virtual items from a purchase including, but not limited to, “loot boxes” must clearly disclose the odds of receiving those items in advance of, and in close and timely proximity to, that purchase.

Currently in game, you can buy vault keys and use that to start a vault battle and get random rewards (a loot box).

April 1 edit:
Proof the game sells vault keys, aka loot boxes. This is fine to do, but drop rates must be disclosed.

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Jun 15 edit:
The list of drops isn’t correct either. It is missing Heart of Rage, Sun, and Emperor. This screenshot is taken from the Vault help article https://gemsofwar.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360001122356-The-Vault-and-Vault-Events

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As it has been nearly 3 months since I posted this, and last month @Saltypatra said on stream that although she raised this issue with the devs they currently do not intend on publishing the drop rates, I finally submitted a policy violation to Google. In case anyone else wants to do the same and just copy/paste what I wrote, here you go:

As per Google Play’s Monetization and Ad → Payment policy, specifically #6, loot boxes must disclose the odds of receiving items.

Vault keys are sold for real world currency. This triggers a roll for getting items in game (ie, loot box). The issue is that drop rates are not posted.

Attached photos are:
-vault keys for sale
-vault itself. The ? button on the top links to a help article on gnomes https://gemsofwar.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360000074455-Gnomes-and-Gnome-Rewards which further links to an article on Vaults

The Vault help article lists some items that can be dropped, but not the likelihood of the drop. Also, some drop items are missing from the list. For example, Vaults can also drop Heart of Rage, Sun, and Emperor.

3 months ago I posted this issue to the devs with no response. Vault drop rates; violating policy with app stores on all platforms Last month on stream they said they do not intend to publicize the drop rates.

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41 Likes
2

You should sue them.

4

That’s an extreme reaction.

Hopefully the devs publicize the drop rates. Otherwise, people may report the game to the app stores.

3 Likes
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Edited the post to include a picture of vault keys being sold.

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Was waiting for this offer to come up so I could add it to the post. Surprised I only had to wait a week.

Devs, are the vault drop rates going to be posted publicly? Here is proof vault keys (aka loot boxes) are sold for real world money, which is fine, but the drop rates must be public as well as a result.

19 Likes
6

I suspect rates haven’t been publiziced because technically, a vault key ‘drop’ is just ‘100% chance to launch a vault battle’, whatever Cedric and the accompanying gnomes drop if one manages to defeat them (it’s not guaranteed for low level players, remember) is independent of that… For that reason I don’t think the clause you’ve referred to would apply here, unfortunately.

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Your definition of loot boxes is inaccurate; otherwise this would have been changed long ago.

8

When a vault key is sold, unless you’re a terrible player (negligible concern), it’s basically 4 loot rolls - 3 treasure gnomes and 1 Cedric.
If 20 gem keys are sold, you know they have only ONE use, which is to open 20 loot chests.
Say they change the 20 gem keys to a new gem battle that drops exactly 20 gem keys as reward, which opens 20 loot chests, would you argue that it would escape the spirit of the rule?

FYI in Australia, loot box legislation has been discussed but to no conclusion. There is no legislation at all there AFAIK. Google Play and Apple App Store have their rules, but enforcement is not transparent and not automatic.

2 Likes
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This is my take on it. Otherwise, what is to stop any game from attaching a small quick mini game with a 99% win rate before opening any loot box if that’s all it takes to not be called one? Spirit of the rule was broken.

Personally I don’t have an issue with loot boxes. But they are gambling (spending money for a chance of a loot item) so I agree with the push to disclose rates. Transparency is a good thing.

4 Likes
10

If we disregard loot box definition for a second: Is there any reason NOT to display these drop rates? The only reason I can see is that they don’t have a nice place in-game to display the drop rates like they do with everything else. Yet, they added an “in-game but out-of-game” page accessible through the blue question mark on Shrines specifically for the new major orb of chaos dynamic. Why can’t the same thing be done for vault keys?

Technically, one could argue that event tiers don’t have drop-rates either, but that’s a topic for another thread.

Speaking of other threads, found another that discusses this same topic, from when Daemon gnome came out: Why are the drop rates for Vault and event shop troops not visible to players?

3 Likes
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I believe vault keys would be included in this definition.

3 Likes
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Report the game to google and apple they have enough power to force them to disclose the drop rates. Also a google or apple representative can hep decide what is a vault key.

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Posted this three months ago. Last month I asked about it in stream where @Saltypatra said that although she has brought this up with the devs, there’s no intention of making the rates public.

Today I finally submitted a policy violation report with Google.

Also, I just realized that the published list of drops (no drop rate, just a list) doesn’t even include all the drops. It is missing Heart of Rage, Sun, and Emperor. https://gemsofwar.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360001122356-The-Vault-and-Vault-Events

As per Google Play’s Monetization and Ad → Payment policy, specifically #6, loot boxes must disclose the odds of receiving items.

Vault keys are sold for real world currency. This triggers a roll for getting items in game (ie, loot box). The issue is that drop rates are not posted.

Attached photos are:
-vault keys for sale
-vault itself. The ? button on the top links to a help article on gnomes https://gemsofwar.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360000074455-Gnomes-and-Gnome-Rewards which further links to an article on Vaults

The Vault help article lists some items that can be dropped, but not the likelihood of the drop. Also, some drop items are missing from the list. For example, Vaults can also drop Heart of Rage, Sun, and Emperor.

3 months ago I posted this issue to the devs with no response. Vault drop rates; violating policy with app stores on all platforms Last month on stream they said they do not intend to publicize the drop rates.

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image1212×606 150 KB

vault
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6 Likes
14

Maybe if enough of us report this on a e.g. Monthly Basis this company will receive enough pressure to start following the rules?

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:crossed_fingers: :relaxed: :vulcan_salute:

1 Like
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I am not gonna join the movement. As it wont do any difference for me. I know after spending 300 vault keys that the drop rates is a strong knee in a full belly, imo its between 1:100 to 1:200 chance at best. I have ofc been unlucky and must eat the rotten tomato…

4 Likes
16

When was the last time a Vault Key could be purchased by itself—without gems in addition? I wonder if the dev team “sell gems and toss in a Vault Key for free”, violating the spirit of the rule while adhering to the letter.

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Reading Google’s policy at least, they don’t say anything about loot boxes being sold alone or with something else. If selling vault keys with gems means it doesn’t have to follow loot box rules, then every game company would pair loot boxes with something else. :woman_shrugging:

1 Like
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There is no reference to the keys being free. They are listed with the gems as a package. So they are violating spirit and letter.

If they had x gems with free bonus x keys, then they would be in compliance.

2 Likes
19

This reminds me of this joke:

Two jew are having a chat while smoking cigars when one of them pulls out the Talmud to read something from it to prove he is right. The other starts to scold him.

  • You read the Talmud while you are smoking, it is forbidden!
  • No it is not, the rabbi allowed me to do it.
    They settle their argument and say good bye till the next week.
  • I asked the rabbi about smoking while reading the Talmud, he punished me for such thought.
  • What did you asked from the rabbi?
  • I asked if could I smoke cigars while reading the Talmud.
  • You asked the wrong question. I asked him, could I read the Talmud when I am having a cigar. He said, the Talmud can be read any time.

(hope not much got lost in the translation :slight_smile: )

1 Like
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Judaism is a religion with a proud history of rules-lawyering an all-knowing, all-powerful being (see the eruv in New York City as an example). I don’t know how many of the dev team are Jewish, but I also feel a bit uncomfortable comparing Google or Apple to God in this metaphor.

1 Like
21

My joke reflected on the depends on how you say it part.
here is a flash offer X gems + Y vault keys for Z amount of money
or
here is a flash offer X gems for Z amount of money and you also get Y vault keys

at the end you bought X gems and Y vault keys in both cases, it is just stated a bit differently