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Apply the same metric to GW Bracket winners and losers

The current system allows winners of lower GW brackets to climb brackets more rapidly. Sometimes my guild would jump 17 brackets, sometimes only 8, depending on the win margin or percentage or however it is determined.

I would like to see 10th place finishers to drop more rapidly under a similar system. If the 10th place guild narrowly loses, it would drop only a few brackets. If it was down to 3 or 5 members, it would drop more.

I’ve read dozens of threads in the GW Topics, and all the posts involved. I’ve battled numerous guilds, some with only 1 member. This past war, a 2nd place finisher failed to advance to a higher bracket, probably because not enough 10th place finishers were dropped to make room.

There was a 9th place finisher from the previous war that finished 3rd in our bracket, and would have won either the bracket above or below this time around. Fortunes can change quickly. But for the clutter of dead and dying guilds, I see no reason for them to cling to higher brackets just because they have a few members still fighting GW battles.

I have outlined previously how the current system is unfair in terms of rewards.

The Hypothetical Guild in this example would have finished 80th, and now drop to bracket 10. When they finish 100th next war, they will finally earn the same rewards as my guild, which finished second in bracket 16.

Under the current system, there is no guarantee we will even move up a bracket. Please fix this “not a bug”. @Kafka

I have seen other proposals which would have all guilds after bracket 10 placed in a huge pool to be reseeded after each war. While this method may be more or less fair to all, I would think applying the same methodology that is used for bracket winners to bracket losers would be easier to implement. Maybe. I’m not really much for thinking. I’d rather be fighting. Thank you for your time.

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Pros:

The great part about this, imo, is that even if a guild drops several Brackets for whatever reason,

  1. It should be just as easy to climb back up for doing well or for hard work

  2. They should still be in a section of the Brackets that largely corresponds with their level of play

The proposal would mean that a more even distribution of scores amongst GW Brackets would more quickly be reached than what is currently in place.

At the moment – without full access to Bracket data, of course – we still have lower-scoring guilds mixed in with higher-scoring guilds in the upper Brackets, and vice-versa in the lower; and I don’t even know if we’re halfway towards reaching a rough ‘equilibrium’, so to speak, following the changes to Bracket calculations that allowed for jumping several at once (also at bottom of post!).


Counters:

The main explanation I’ve seen for why progression remains slow is as follows:

Understanding this post does require a bit of context, though, so I recommend checking out the entire thread.

Nonetheless:

  • The time taken to rise up the Brackets for PC/Mobile is well beyond 6-10 months

  • I’d really like to see some examples of these top guilds that had to spend even 1 year entirely in uncompetitive Brackets with rewards akin to Brackets 100+

    • This isn’t intended to be inflammatory or divisive – if examples exist, the perspective would be much appreciated
  • Things don’t always have to be the way they were. We’ve seen this in many forms already:

    • The game shifting in directions that some veteran players don’t always like
    • Acknowledging that the class change fee was no longer necessary or beneficial to the game
    • Gems being sold for less $/Gem in a Gem Sale than the week before

If a better way of doing something comes along, I think we should jump aboard.


Potential for Bracket gaming:

The only other problem or counterpoint that I can see at the moment is the increased potential to game Brackets for the newly introduced 50 Gem reward for winning a Bracket – however this is really only feasible between Brackets 99 and 100, and I think the level of reward for the effort required, and the number of additional guilds it might affect (beyond those currently able to do so) is so marginal it’s barely worth considering, realistically. If the possibility was wanted to be removed entirely, the reward could be adjusted to a meagre 15 Gems for winning any Bracket in the 100+ region (as 10+15 gives the same reward as the tier above). I’d only suggest or be okay with this if progression from Bracket ~400 to Bracket 100 was much quicker.


The Bracket Victory reward; personal thoughts

On the subject of the newly-introduced reward for winning a Bracket, I appreciate it as a gesture of good will, and I’m hoping it’s a temporary offering to appease us while they work on a more permanent solution – because while appreciated, I really don’t think it addresses all of the concerns that have been raised with regards to GW progression.

I think it’s hard to know what the devs’ thoughts are here – all they’ve said in the patch notes is:

Engagement on the subject is critical, imo. I believe active listening should include confirming with the other party that you’ve understood.

We do however know that Sirrian historically wanted something like this:


Suggested reading for GW Brackets:


@ChunkyMono I appreciate your continued efforts here.

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Thank you @Jonathan for posting additional links. In some of the older threads, 2017 and 2018, it seemed like one year was the consensus for how long it should take to find competitive brackets. And I would say that more or less has been my guild’s experience. There should be a rite of passage to climb the leaderboards for new guilds.

And while we are nearing the end of our quest to face the top 100 guilds in glorious combat, I still would like to make it less frustrating for future guilds in their ascent. Should it take 6 GW for a dead or dying guild to drop from b1 to b10? Dropping an additional 2 brackets per GW after dropping to b10, if that is to be their destiny, would then take that guild 45 more wars to drop from b10 to b100. 51 wars is just under 4 years.

My head is starting to hurt from trying to do math. Forget the gem rewards. Forget the other rewards. I just want to be fighting honorable matches, with my friends and guild mates. There is no honor in defeating dead guilds. And we have faced too many of those in the past 14 months. I am certain that future guilds will feel the same frustrations.

“where every Guild is in a bracket which is suited to their activity.” This is not happening when guilds with 3 to 5 members are allowed to linger in higher brackets. Hypothetically speaking. It may be different on PS4 and Console/Mobile.

Thanks again for adding to the discussion.

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After reading the above linked thread more than one year later, and seeing a second place guild in a bracket that failed to advance because guilds passed it, I am left wondering why fail to promote a second place guild, when the system could have just as easily demoted the 7th place finisher in the higher bracket?

The outcry would still come from the effected guild, but a 7th place finisher would receive less sympathy. From me at least.

Less thinking, more fighting, Chunky! :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

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I took a look thru the GW data on https://www.taransworld.com/GuildRankings/gw.pl

There were a few gaps, but the first instance I saw of a 2nd place finisher that didn’t advance was bracket 16 two wars ago. They did manage to win their bracket the next war, but then a gap appeared, and I was unable to see how they performed in the latest GW.

Also two wars ago, there was a guild that finished in bracket 17 with significantly fewer points than in previous wars, and then in bracket 19, finished with 0, and in bracket 21 did fight a few battles. Good enough to earn themselves 75 gems twice and 50 gems for the next ten wars at this pace.

I’m certain if data were available on Xbox, PS4 and Switch, I could find additional cases. But if this isn’t worth fighting about, then I will find another cause worth fighting for. Last I heard, there were still plenty of Gem kissing Elves in Silverglade and the Forest of Thorns. I only have 3 weeks to prepare my Raiders for another assault…time to get to work. Forget the Iron price, we will pay the Stone price; the broken bone price if need be; the Puddling price. We will never surrender. For the Horde.

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The Guild I referenced here did finish 8th in their Bracket last GW. I even saw a recruitment thread recently, so ‘Good on them’. Sincerely, I mean no disrespect.

And if there were a Hypothetical Guild on Xbox per my previous example, we would now be on a collision course, as they would have finished last in b10, and drop to b12. Meanwhile, my Guild finished 1st in b15. Will we jump the standard two to b13, did we do well enough to skip to b12, or perhaps even b11?

Will we be two Guilds, fighting on a hypothical war of guilds, or peacefully pass each other in the fog of war. Nothing is certain. All I know is that if my Guild ever split, with the Warcraft Orcs forming a new Guild, the Warhammer greenskins joining another, and the LotR Orcs staying put, I would be perfectly ok with my Guild dropping more than two brackets if we got crushed in a GW. That’s the last I’ll say on the matter.

Friggin pancakes.

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With all requested/proposed changes to Pet Gnomes now a ‘hard no’, and pvp/arena/utfe (unhealthy Tues Faction events) being looked at, I find myself searching for other things to complain about.

I was surprised my guild jumped 5 brackets to b10. Even more surprising to me at the moment is that the 2nd place guild finished last in b8 last GW. Maybe that is to be our fate as well: Jump to b8, finish last, fall back to b10. C’est la guerre.

And yet, on Taransworld, there are guilds that show scores of 0 dropping only 2 brackets war after war. (easily seen by sorting lowest to higheest). This doesn’t effect me personally. We’re finally top 100 on Xbox y’all. It just reminds me of all the dead guilds we passed getting here.

I don’t see the downside of dropping non-participants more than 2 brackets. If they try to ‘game the game’ by losing on purpose to get an easier bracket to win, just lump 'em with other losers. There were times we faced off against 3 other bracket winners. Put 4 bracket losers together too.

Anyway, that’s my only complaint today. Well, that, and my bed is too small. Thanks for reading. For the Horde.

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With a new GW comes a new bump to my previous rants.

Looking back, it is good that it took the Raiders over a year to reach b7. We now receive 50% bonus on Red and Blue days, and 49% bonus on the other 4 days.

If we hadn’t taken so long to pass all those dead and dying guilds, we might have fought tougher opponents sooner, and not had the benefit of higher scoring Sentinels. Guardians?

Two new threads (one as a Bug Report) prove to me that although the Raiders won’t face too many more Dead guilds, their presence in other brackets should be resolved sooner rather than later. Better competition is better for the enjoyment of all involved. Let the 0s battle each other, while the heroes earn better rewards. Strength and Honor.

For the Horde.

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We were in Bracket 6 last war, 32k points away from finishing 2nd. It was the first time our guild had failed to advance. 4 days into battling in Bracket 6 again, we fluctuate between 2nd and 10th, depending what time of day it is.

We may move up, we may move down, we may stay in Bracket 6 again. These are the battles we were looking for. Competition. It took us a good long while to find it.

Personally, I’ve lost 5 times in 4 days. I don’t think I’ve lost 5 times the entire time since I left a guild that gravitated between Brackets 1 and 2. I am enjoying the challenge, and looking forward to getting better next time.

I still have yet to hear from a Dev as to why a guild should not move down more than 2 brackets following a loss. If a guild is not competitive, it should drop at a commensurate rate as a winner would advance. Why must it take a year and a half to find our best competition? I’m certain it takes longer in Pc/Mobile brackets. More guilds equals the likelihood of more dead guilds jamming up the process.

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“Joined Oct 18, '17”

Cave, sleeping, or what? You’ve been here long enough to know how GW works.

Brackets was a last minute addition to guild wars, and initial GW rank seeding was based on trophy count. Work hard and you will make it to bracket one, I’ve seen many an upstart creep in uninvited :face_with_monocle:

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I know how it works. I’m just not sure why it works the way it does.

Sure, a top guild that self-destructs should be given time to re-fit and recruit, but does a guild that comes in last by half a million points or more deserve to only drop two brackets?

What about the guilds that score 0 points war after war? Taransworld only tracks PC/Mobile Wars, but I’m sure it’s the same across all platforms. If it’s supposed to be a competition, make the participants be competitive. There should be penalties for posting a 0. Dropping two brackets is insufficient in my opinion.

I like GW. I don’t think major changes are required. I would just prefer there to be a consequence for non-competitors.

You’ve made some good suggestions in the past, as have others. And yet, the song remains the same. Another thread about dead and dying guilds gumming up the works, and war never changes.

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For the orcs — NAY! for the HORDE — Raise Chunky’s banner high, and join your roar to his rallying cry!

We should all be so lucky to bash the skulls of our equals —foes worthy of our strength in full!
To slaughter but lessers will our bloodlust cull —

THAT IS UNACCEPTABLE!

This is WAR, and we fight it well;
Drop those who don’t to the lower-bracket He—Er, I mean…that place that ain’t so swell?

*Ahem

Yeah. Well. This orc is back. I think my battles gave me a short stroke. But I am back.

And I fully support the idea of steeper penalties for bad performance—best idea I’ve seen so far to (at least start) making brackets work better.

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Sometimes in the course of Orcish events, I get caught up in my own life struggles, and forget why I started Raging in the first place. Bump.

Off topic: How do I delete Topic Threads no longer necessary? I have about three recruitment threads…I’ve figured out how to delete my posts, but the thread would still be there…thanks in advance.

Edit: Also, is there a better title that would better communicate what I am trying to propose? Like, take the algorithm you have for bracket winners, and apply it to losers.

It shouldn’t be as difficult as changing the Carved/Watery affixes on Doomed Club/Blade. At least not in my mind. I am but a simple Orc, with a simple mind tho. Back to work. Zug zug.

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mark them as [CLOSED] or something and bump the newest one. these [CLOSED] ones should eventualy end up few pages back.
Dont think there’s a feature to remove whole topics here. or at leat it’s not given to forum members.

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Cheers mate. Done and done.

And, while I’m out and about, bump.

The other thing you can do is tag Lyya (not done here so she won’t be pinged in the wrong place). She has thread-deleting powers, I do believe.

I’d be sad to see the orcish ramblings go, though — save them to the main recruitment thread before you erase them, if you find the time :laughing::wink::kissing_heart:

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