Request for Legendary Tier List

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Yeah, Silenus is one of the “middle” 50% mana starters (along with Holy St. Astra and King Avelorn) that are a bit tricky to place.

I put him in C because a) I don’t think you can build around his spell - 104 damage is pretty good, but requires a full wildfolk team, and +3 magic and burn-all are ok side effects, but not game changers. 14 mana cost is faster than average, but overall, his spell seems like a lot of ok pieces that don’t quite add up to something great. Compared to higher-ranked spell casters like King Highforge (similar damage, but inflicts stun to two targets), King Avelorn (more damage+summon), or Krystenax (more damage, board control+summon), I think King Silenus falls a little short.

This leads to b) in terms of adding value to a team, Silenus works well with The Wild Queen, but The Maraji Queen also gives her a fast start, with much better team options than King Silenus (elementals overall >> wildfolk). I’d still peg Silenus as a B-tier, if there were other good wildfolk options he could boost, but there really aren’t any other strong wildfolk spell casters who benefit from his fast start (Luna’s good more because of her third trait, rather than her spell).

All that said, Silenus is still pretty good, and if there was an all-wildfolk team without TWQ (or a TWQ that was as good as her elemental teams), I could see him moving back up to B pretty easily.

Also, the new kingdom bonuses tied to deeds may also move King Silenus up the ranks, something I hadn’t really considered when making the last version of the tier list. (The stat boosts of an all-Pan’s Vale team may be enough to make him a favored partner of TWQ again.)

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In line with my last comment, what do we think about the 50% mana-start legendaries (who don’t control the board or belong to a bottom-tier type)?

  • King Highforge (A or B): OK damage, inflicts untargeted back-line stun, and boosts dwarves, a fairly strong troop type. His damage being tied to using dwarves limits him a bit though. I guess the question to me boils down to, is his spell good enough to use without a dwarf team, or is his main role to provide a fast start for Bloodhammer and the Runepriest hero class?

  • Holy St. Astra (A or B): Her spell is pretty good, especially in scaling content, but human type is generally somewhat mediocre (outside a few standouts, notably Tesla). Are they good enough for her to be A-tier?

  • King Avelorn (A or B): He’s obviously part of a meta team, but I feel his main role there is to speed up Arachnaean Weaver and the hero; you wouldn’t build your team around Avelorn, which hurts him compared to other A-tier Legendaries. His unique spell boosts damage off three troop types; its just a shame that Elves are often single-typed, limiting just how powerful his AoE damage can be.

  • King Silenus (B or C): My last post pretty much explained my thoughts. His spell is not as good as the above 3, but The Wild Queen is an excellent mythic, and I’m curious if the new kingdom stat bonuses tied to levels 11-15 can make a Wildfolk team worth playing as an alternative to the elemental-based TWQ builds.

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King Highforge: B/C, leaning towards High C. I don’t ever really care to cast him, but a summon can be nice.

Holy St. Astra: A for end-game players, B for early players

King Avelorn: B

King Silenus: C…? I’m trying to be open minded. It might be an early game all-star for all I know, but I just don’t see myself having it at B

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64

Good stuff. I’ll probably move Astra up in the next version, my appreciation for healers in scaling content has grown since I made the last list.

Likewise, Highforge will go down to B, I think Obsidius has really reduced his utility in the end-game (along with the addition of bless). Highforge still has utility when paired with other dwarves, so I can’t see dropping him down to C just yet though (i.e. the tier where the troops have no end-game team).

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Here’s some more Legendaries I had questions on (4 Queens and a hound dog edition):

  • Tesla (S or A): Tesla’s one of the two non-mythics (The Deep King is the other) that can do massive amounts of true damage. She’s best known for her work in scaling content, but is pretty viable in non-scaling content too (albeit not as dominant there as some of the other S-tiers). Anybody object to moving her to S?

  • Umberwolf/Scylla (B or C): This isn’t so much questioning Umberwolf, who has his niche, but more focusing on why Scylla is not too well-regarded, despite pretty much guaranteeing a constant bonestorm as long as she’s alive (via her third trait). Is there any reason for these two not to be in the same tier? Having a storm of skulls is inherently riskier I suppose, but also lends itself to quicker kills on offense.

  • Queen Ysabelle (A or B): Ysabelle is kind of a boring troop in non-scaling content, but does a good job of complementing mang in scaling challenges. Is there any use for her in non-scaling content for late-game players?

  • Queen Grapplepot (B or C): Grapps is still an ok troop on goblin teams, but I wonder if she hasn’t been replaced in most niches by King Gobtruffle, who basically brings the same AoE damage plus board control. She can be used together with Gobtruffle, but is that option worth considering over the Maraji Queen, or even a second Gobtruffle?

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Tesla: S

Umberwolf: A/B: Perma storms are strong, Purple color is really good, but currently not in season. Will eventually make a return.

Scylla: B/C: requires being turned on by a 4/5 match which then can be turned off by another storm of some kind. Sunspear/Stormcaller/Umberwolf/Skadi. Skulls dont actually generate mana, so you can’t really just throw a skull storm on and expect it to be a positive. Requires a build around me team. Her spell doesn’t work with her 3rd trait at all. All I can tell you is Umberwolf and Scylla don’t have the same value.

Queen Ysabelle: C: I don’t think QY is all that special, tbh.

Queen Grapplepot: C: 17 mana for that spell was never all that good, unless you could refill it quickly to go again. It was never good alone either.

But hey, its your tier list and at some point I may as well just make my own if I keep suggesting/adjusting. No one else has been replying…

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67

I think overall your list is pretty solid but there are a two things I would disagree with

Krystenax - I would put him in A tier. I know he is not as fast as or powerful as a lot of other troops but he is still a really solid troop. He is one of the best things in early/mid game and while not as good in endgame can still be put on most teams and does have some good uses. With his enchant on purples and summons he can be put at the bottom of almost any team and collect mana though enchant ready for whenever you need a summon to protect the rest of your team. Also with nimble and stone skin he is a pretty good option for first slot.

Queen Mab - I would put her at B tier. Her third trait is really strong but her spell is getting weaker all the time with new mana shield troops coming out and a lot more submerge options.

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I really appreciate your suggestions, actually. It’s good to confirm my hunches on things, and sometimes you bring up stuff I hadn’t considered. Don’t know why other people don’t chime in, though we could probably speculate on some of the reasons…

Anyway, we’re on the same page for Tesla and Grapplepot. The way I tend to handle scaling troops is basically bump them up a tier if they are useful in those modes (since there are only a handful of troops that really shine). This is how we have Keeper of Souls in A, instead of its natural spot in B. For Queen Ysabelle, I thought she was a C, with her use on the Mang, Ysabellex3 teams justifying a bump to B (leaving open the possibility that she may have some other use). If that team is too gimmicky, then she belongs in C, as you said.

I guess perma-darkstorm and semi*-perma-bonestorm are pretty different, factoring the mana gain issue. I guess I’m more concerned with knowing if bonestorm has significant enough negatives to keep Scylla out of B-tier. You do have to build a team around bonestorm (same for darkstorm, right?), and there are fewer options for those kinds of teams than for building around a color-storm but they do exist. Scylla + Wrath/TPK are some well-known duos, and she probably goes pretty well with doomskull troops/weapons.

Yeah her spell is limited, but it does some damage at least, and the spell isn’t a deal-breaker if you can use the bonestorm. After all, Umberwolf is one of the few good troops who you actually have to avoid casting. I may eventually end up eating my words, but for now I think Scylla belongs in B, for being more unique and impactful than the C-tier troops.

*(The overwriting issue is solved by not picking those classes, right? Yes you have to reapply when facing teams using their own permastorm, but it also means that the opponent doesn’t get any bonestorm turns against you.)

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Just chiming in to say I, at the very least, like the back-and-forth between @Mana_Surgeon and @TheIdleOne; lack of replies aren’t necessarily lack of interest!

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70

Thanks!

I actually think Mab is bouncing back (from her 2018 low point), as curse troops become more prevalent. She’s still the queen of passive freeze, and curse allows her mana burn to be reliable against the entire cast. She may need a little more help than she used to, but she can still be the centerpiece of strong teams (much like Hyndla), and so I have a hard time dropping her from A. She’s still an important option, with Rope Dart and Gobtruffle teams being so popular these days.

I definitely don’t see Krystenax being better than Mab. I actually agree with your summary of his strengths (B-tier is pretty good!). Krystenax is versatile, but for most roles he can play in the endgame, you can find something better. You can’t say that for Mab or Hyndla (other A-tiers that rely on their spells for utility). For Khorvash it may be debatable (with Obsidius), but I would argue the parts Khorvash brings (passive stun, active stun, true damage, mana drain) are superior to what Krystenax brings.

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LOL Abhorath is 1 of the best legendaries.

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It’s going to take more than a “LOL” to change my mind. Can you share a team with Abhorrath that makes you like it so much?

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LOL So emotional, why?

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Because you made a false statement and he wants to know if you have knowledge he doesn’t. But all you did was laugh about it and suggest he should’ve just taken your opinion at face value, so now we know we’re still right, Abhorath is abhorrent and there’s not some thing that’s been missed.

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75

I actually think she was far stronger in 2018 before submerge was everywhere. I use Tidecaller a lot and most matches most of my team is submerged and can’t be damaged by her. I have also noticed Frostmage is a pretty popular defence class and that and that can really spam submerge as well and unless you stun the hero there is no way to stop the submerging. I do agree that she is probably the best troop when you need freeze and I did you her in GW today when dealing with a goblin team.

I actually find Krystenax to be superior to Hyndla (except for giant teams) and in most cases Mab as well. Krystenax has a weakness in Submerge like Mab but he still does a really good amount of damage, can get an extra turn and a lot of mana sometimes even enough to refill himself if played right, removes a colour from the board to stop trolls and all these converter troops and summons with his spell whereas Mab can usually do up to 45ish damage if it doesn’t get stopped by impervious, mana shield, wood ancestry, dark ancestry, high ancestry, invulnerable or bless and can get an extra turn if there are enough blue gems.

Khorvash isn’t as strong as he used to be with Obsidius around now but I agree he is still a really solid troop especially being able to stun before he drains mana and does a decent amount of true damage.

I think it really depends on the team you are fighting and what mode you are playing as to whether Khorvash, Mab, Hyndla or Krystenax is the superior troop. Mab will always be the best for fighting looping teams with her freeze trait, Khorvash is usually the best when you have something dangerous in first or second that needs to be drained or if you need stun, nothing better than Hyndla for a giant team and for converters and trolls I prefer Kyrstenax to get rid of gems to stop them getting extra turns or mana. When I do come up with a team that needs a forth troop but doesn’t really need freeze, stun or mana drain I usually just go for Krystenax because he does a lot and it doesn’t really matter if he is blocked on a colour or even both with his enchant.

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77

You can’t prove a negative or absence of a thing—that’s why no one has ever proven the non-existence of unicorns.

But the burden of proof lays with the person making the positive claim—i.e “unicorns exist” or “Abhorath is really strong”—because until proof of such has been provided, all the rest of us can reasonably do is say “no they don’t” and “no, he isn’t.”

Why? Because no one has ever provided evidence to the contrary of something that should be possible to provide if the claim is, in fact, true

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LOL The burden of proof is up to the person making the negative claim, as there was no explanation as to why a certain troop “isn’t good”. I hope you understand how burden of proof works.

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Go home, LOLtroll, unless you actually want to help discuss the merits of the tier list because, otherwise, you’re derailing the thread.

On topic: generally I don’t put much credence in the idea of tier lists—I don’t think they’re very useful unto themselves because they attempt to compare apples to oranges in the sense that they sort of lump things together, ignoring situational cases (which is where a lot of troops really shine).

However—as this post clearly demonstrates, in creating a tier list useful conversations regarding the strategic merits of individual troops do take place, and I think that’s worth doing :+1:

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You raise some good points. Tidecaller and Aquaticus have definitely made submerge more of a factor this year, but curse is also the solution to submerge, right? Mab definitely needs more support than in the past, but with new troops like Frostfeather, Maraji Queen, and Vash, she has answers.

You seem to have a really high opinion of Krystenax’s color removal. While I get that it’s useful for color denial/defensive play, I’ve found it difficult to use that ability to generate extra turns regularly, since it requires very specific board setups. I’m also surprised you’ve had so much success with mana generation, since Krystenax “removes” gems, which doesn’t generate mana (unlike Anu’s Sceptre or other “destroy gems” spells). Enchant is helpful for an extra few mana here or there, but is kinda slow for the modern game, since it only grants 2 mana per turn.

I will say though, the thing I like best about color removal is that it makes board modification optional. The ability for the player to decide when to modify the board a lot or a little and still do damage/summon on top of that is pretty unique to Krystenax.

The combination of Krystenax’s abilities does make him unique and situationally better than the A-tiers I mentioned. The overarching problem I have with using Krystenax the way you described, though, is that role, as a last-spot support troop, is one of the most competitive roles in GoW. Notably, we have the Possessed King or Queen Aurora (or variants of their abilities), or a number of empowered troops, who are guaranteed to make the other three troops more effective.

I think the color removal+damage combo is what makes Krystenax stand out most (summoning is less important on offense, and the traits are useful, but not character-defining), and decides where he goes on a tier list. If you think that it’s a top-level support troop, you’ll have it in A. It seems a bit too situational to me (as the A-tiers are either anchor troops you build your team around, or providers of top-level support), but I appreciate your points, and want to mess around with it some more before making a final judgement.

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So, I happen to have a soft spot for Spring Imp. Its one of three troops that can entangle all enemies in one cast (the others being Leshy, which is self-sabotage, the other was an Invasion troop I think that does it on enemy death. Yawn.).

In most cases, Sylvanimora is easier to use, but when I’m using Zuul’Goth, I really don’t want that arbitrary 5% to kick in where I kill the top entangled troop with skulls, but leave a bajillion left behind to bash me right back from their 2nd slot.

Alderfather/Yasmine would take too long to hit every target due to random, and I rather not cast 4 times for other troops.

Could also be a relevant thing for Tomb Robber/Bone Dragon/Skeleros/Setauri, not that they see much play.

Not my tier list, but its worth more than a D rank to me.

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