Last Weeks' Bounty Troop (Sister Superior)

Let me start by saying I don’t like Bounty events. I don’t find them as much more than a chore. I think I like them a little better than Raid Boss, but I don’t particularly like that event either. But if we’re objective about it, I think the premise of some of the complaints is not conducive to the design. Let’s take a deep dive for the titty babies.

This is not “Gems of You Are an Awesome Undefeatable God”. Bounty is not here to hand out trophies for managing to successfully use the toilet. That’s what Arena with Dawnbringer is for. It’s easy to get this misconception if you’ve been farming Explore for months or rocking PvP with one of your meta teams: they hand out rewards like candy for tasks like “zipping your pants” or “forming a three-word sentence”. You can practically play other games while you do them. Those are where you should be if you want to be able to feel like a god. GW, Raid Boss, Invasion, and Bounty are modes where you’re meant to feel like a mortal.

To that end, they all have something in common: you have sigils. That means you can’t decide you’d rather use an easy, grindy team and take 10 hours as opposed to a more optimal, slow team in 1. Your performance is limited and you have to figure out how to get the most points per match. Even if you decide to buy more sigils, it’s true that you will eventually spend more than the rewards you get back, so it is crucial to keep a balance in mind.

In the Bounty mode, you can increase your points per match by using more Bounty Hunter troops. They are more effective if they’ve been ascended, which costs other resources. So people who rush to brag and be the first to mythic every new troop are at an advantage over people who spend frugally. We can also see that most of the Bounty troops are not S-ranks on the order of Infernus: they’re mostly niche roleplayers and filler.

That means we see a challenge or, in game design terms, a tension: “If I use more bounty troops, it’s harder to win, but I get more points.” Each level, you have to evaluate your performance and decide if a higher win rate is worth losing some multipliers. This takes some complicated math and a bit of gambling. Believe it or not, many aspects of this game are tied to gambling and there is nothing new about that.

We need tension in our games, because tension is what creates optimization challenges. These decisions are what is fun for addicted gamblers who are most susceptible to spending money. When you play an F2P game, you have to understand it will be designed to cater to addicted gamblers.

There are many troops in the game with a natural advantage vs. Naga. Immunity to poison is not rare. “Being a generically good troop” is not rare. You can build a Naga-killer party and breeze through all of the matches… at the cost of having a very low modifier. Remember when I said you can’t get a trophy for successfully using the toilet? Reaching the highest reward tier of Bounty with a Pet Rescue team will cost you more than it gives back. It’s easy but stupid. Tension.

So you can take that Naga-wrecking team and start to compare each slot to the available bounty troops. You might find that some bounty hunter has similar characteristics to a Naga-slayer. So that’s one you can put on your team. You lose a little bit of power and, thus, win rate. But you gain a points multiplier. Tension. This is still not going to easily get you to the “end”, and is still likely to cost more than it gives back.

So you can handicap your team even further, deciding to use bounty troops with no real natural advantage vs. Naga. Maybe you use the captain, who isn’t particularly strong this week. In return, you get the highest possible multiplier. So if you can still build a useful team around that guy, it’s potentially stronger than a different team with 2 bounty hunters. Tension.

To that end, getting some kind of Naga-slayer troop this week would dramatically lower the difficulty and reduce tension. You wouldn’t have to ask, “Is it even WORTH using it?” This is how Raids and Invasions lose some of their tension: that is NEVER a question, you have to essentially build a 3-member team and arguably a 2-member team since Mang is so useful.

SOME DAY, in theory, there will be so many bounty troops available we’ll have “slayer” type troops from the past that will help. That’s going to be a long time from now. Bounty will be a bit more boring then, but still have a built-in tension: the captain with the doubled bonus will not be that suddenly-relevant slayer troop. So you will STILL have the tension that the slayer has to use a slot that could be filled by a more generally-powerful troop.

When we build teams, we like to start with something really powerful like Infernus. But Infernus has a problem: it costs 22 mana, and that’s a lot of matches. So when we build an Infernus team, we want to answer, “How do I get more than 3 mana per turn consistently?” Ishbaala is one answer: she cuts the cost of the first cast to 11 mana, which is much eaiser to obtain. Diviner is an answer: she can generate yellow mana in a way that typically yields 10+ once she’s full. Both Ishbaala and Diviner can enchant Infernus, which also reduces the cost. Mercy is also popular. Hence we arrive at the Infernish team, which lets us consistently cast Infernus almost every turn, and certainly every other turn.

But that has zero bounty hunters, doesn’t it? And none of the bounty hunters really help fill Infernus consistently fast. So if we take Diviner and/or Mercy off the team, Infernus gets slower and thus less powerful. Eventually it’s so slow and clunky we wonder why Infernus is on the team at all, so we seek something better. Tension!

In short: this is working as intended, even if it’s a frustrating slog.

I compare it to the snotgem events, and I have to say it’s more appealing. There is zero tension in a snotgem event. Even if I suck at Treasure Hunt, it’s very likely I can’t NOT get everything with a predictable amount of treasure maps. When it’s a PvP snotgem event, all I have to do is make sure I play an extra 50+ PvP matches. When it’s an Explore event, I accidentally get the gems when I’m already traitstone farming. These are participation trophies and they barely even matter. Yawn.

Bounty is like a snotgem event where you can lose miserably if you don’t think very hard and balance “putting yourself at a disadvantage” vs. “getting lower scores”. That’s a bit more interesting than “play 400 Explore matches and it’s statistically impossible to not win”.

In shorter:

I think the complaint was initially valid but has been taken to an extremely entitled conclusion: “If I can’t effortlessly reach the final reward tier this event is a failure.” Sorry, this is a mode where even A.W. “I mythic every troop within 10 minutes” Ryan has to stretch a few neurons to get his prize every week.

I see this in Bounty/Raid every week, too. Some events, my guild reaches the final portals early in the week and we all complain about how the rest of our sigils feel wasted. Other weeks, we start to worry late Saturday that we’re all going to have to buy extra tiers if we want to get that sweet, sweet last portal. This is a mode with a particularly advantageous troop on our team. Two of them, if you count Mang. So it follows that Bounty, a mode where you are encouraged to consider using zero OP troops, might take a bit of finagling if you want to see the final rewards.

7 Likes

I agree with almost your whole post. And I don’t even do bounty because yeah, it’s not fun - and if I make it fun by using troops that don’t suck, I get little to no rewards, so I don’t even start.

But there’s one thing:

The final tier can never be effortlessly reached, even if Infernus would suddenly be a Bounty troop giving a multiplier. To reach the final tier, you need sigils and with that, you need to spend gems. A LOT of gems. And part of the deals you do in the shop include a new troop.

So what happened here is that before the captains changed, you got a troop useful for the bounty and sigils. Now you get a troop useless for the bounty and sigils. This lowers your winning chances automatically, making it quite likely that you need even more sigils to reach the final tier by using more non-bounty troops or not even using the captain at all because of their uselessness. So by lowering the usefulness of the captain, the cost of reaching the final tier has been brought up even more. And, let’s be honest, it has always been ridiculously high even to begin with.

As I don’t do Bounty, I don’t give a crap about the captain - I will just pull the troop (and never use it) from chests in 3-4 weeks - or the shop in general.

But the issue here for me is: The devs have installed a lot of ridiculous P2W gem sinks. And, without warning, one bounty ago, they made that gem sink hole even bigger, then promised they would change that and… well.

So while I don’t care for Bounty because I don’t care for gem sinks at all and don’t participate in any sigil-event, I care about the mentality the devs have shown here once again and I find it very, very, very upsetting.

5 Likes

this new troop is actually a better tank that any other bounty troop. so at high levels he does do a good job in stopping damage. 3 bounty and a damage dealer should be doable

Now now @UKresistance. It’s only imperative that they fix things that BENEFIT us… not those that HINDER us. You should know this by now.
Ooops gnome spawn rate too high. Ninja fast hot patch… ohhhhh something like not getting extra turns or even just any mana at all… back burner. Gotta wait until they can squeeze it into the money taking aspect of things.

2 Likes

See I feel like I have to talk about this on two layers and I tried to separate those layers in the last post but it’s never innately clear.

On the subjective level, I agree with you. Bounty feels like a chore I do because I am gambling for Orbs of Wisdom or Orbs of Ascension. I buy enough tiers to get the new troop. Then I play until I get an orb. Then I ask myself if I think it’s reasonable to expect I can make it to the next orb tier. If not, I check my current gems, next shop tier, estimate I want 700+ gems to face next week, and decide if buying a new tier can reasonably translate into an orb without threatening my progress. If so, repeat. If not, I’m done. I think it’s possible, one day, when I have every bounty hunter at mythic, I can entertain reaching the last tier. So far I’ve only made it to Legendary for most of them so I know it’s unrealistic. If you’re right and you can’t really make it without spending more than tier 2 or 3, I’m very disappointed with the event as a whole.

On the objective level, the mechanisms make sense. Long-term, when I consider what happens when we have 15-20 bounty troops, I can see this being an interesting mode with lots of tensions. But I see in this thread a sense of, “I have to get to the final tier and I should be able to do it without spending gems”. I don’t think that’s part of the design. When we analyze Raid Boss and Invasion we see that a guild has to buy in at Tier III and at least partially to Tier IV to make it. It follows that Bounty might follow that same intent.

That takes us to another level: it’s possible for a point to be “valid” (objective) but not “good” (subjective). I think you get this but I want to mansplain it for people who don’t. For you, I want to say, “I think this is a valid design but I don’t think it’s a good design” and I think you’ll probably nod and post a bunny picture, which I accept happily because that exchange doesn’t need further explanation. For everyone else:

Suppose I watch a burly, muscular man wrestle a cheetah and strangle it to death. I can, with that anecdote, make the statement that a man can wrestle a cheetah and survive. That is what “valid” means. I can find facts that completely support it. No one can say “it can’t happen” and be correct.

That doesn’t make it a “good” statement. If we subjected several more people to a cheetah wrestling match, we’d have a lot of dead humans to complement the failed cheetahs. Claws, teeth, and their higher muscular density are great advantages, and it takes an exceptional human specimen to wrestle them to the death. No matter how many successful humans I find, that there will be humans who fail is true and my initial statement is false. Only some humans can successfully wrestle a cheetah to the death, and even with the right human it’s not likely with 100% probability. The statement is valid but not good.

I think the designs of Bounty Hunt are “valid”. I don’t think they are “good”. But I don’t have a lot of opinions for how to make them “good”. I don’t want them to be as brain-dead easy as Explore. I don’t want them to be as “hard” as they are now, but that’s a complex statement. What I really mean is I usually regret the gems I spend on them vs. the rewards they yield.

What also bothers me is the metric for, “Is a mode working?” is participation rather than any kind of player sentiment survey. I would be pleased as punch if we had a week with no Raid Boss, no Invasions, no Bounty Hunt, AND no Guild Wars. A break. A chance to take in gems and other resources so I could maybe one day help my guild out with a big expenditure. A chance to pick a traitstone I want to farm and do that exclusively with zero guilt. Or maybe I’d just do Arena all week. It’d be so cool.

That I play GW, Raid Boss, Invasion, and Bounty every week has nothing to do with whether I like them. They are modes that affect my progress so participation is mandatory, because I’m a foolish player with a competitive streak. They are distractions. They are reasons I feel guilty if, on a bathroom break, I decide to play a few Explore matches instead of using sigils.

That will, ultimately, result in burnout a lot faster than giving me rewards too fast might.

4 Likes

I just tried to see how far I can get without spending anything with my current bounty troops (no captain, 4x legendary bounty troop). Given that I had to start at battle #1 and I got enough Valravens to end at battle #10, but very barely won that one, I ended up with 8250 points. Let’s assume I would get 10 battles total the next days as well, but only do battle #10 since the next one seems unreasonable to me, given how close I came to dying at #10 and switching out bounty troops would result in a point loss. Let’s also assume my troops would be mythic - I could, technically, spend all my gold keys and maybe get some to mythic if I get lucky.
Then I would have a 24x multiplier on a 100-point-battle. That’s 2400 points per battle or 24000 a day, there’s two days left, 48000 points.
Reward 20 alone needs 80k points.

I think it is safe to say that it is absolutely impossible to reach the last tier without spending gems.

Now, Tier 2-3.
Let’s say Tier 3. You get a 3x multiplier from an UR bounty troop, doubled because of the captain bonus to 6x. Which is the same as a mythic, normal bounty troop.
This means that just buying Tier 3 for the UR captain is useless when you have other bounty troops at mythic.
You also get 9 seals total from three tiers. Let’s stick with the 10-battles-a-day I got. You get around 21-22 more battles that way, possibly. Let’s say you’re lucky and get 22.
22 x 2400 = 52800
That’s basically a bit more than what you need for Rank 19.

Now, this might be totally wonky math. It’s based on my assumption that staying on Battle #10 is smarter than doing Battle #19 with two switched-out troops. It’s also based on the fact that I have never cared how the Bounty score is calculated and if the values on the rewards screen are culmulative or if Rank 20, for example, needs not 80k points in addition to what you already need for Rank 19, but 80k score total. Yeah, I care about these modes so little that I don’t even know that.

At any rate, though, I feel like Tier 2-3 aren’t worth it because the captain is, unless it’s a really, really good troop in itself, worthless when it comes to the multiplier. Worthless at Tier 2 if you have otherwise legendary bounty troops, worthless at Tier 3 if you have mythic bounty troops.

Not sure if any of this made sense or if I am using completely wrong mechanics in my math from the beginning. And because of that…

nods
giphy
:blush::wink::rabbit:

lol if she had a song, what would it be?

1 Like

I think Mithran did an analysis once. With perfect play on level 20 and averaging a x18 multiplier, you just barely break Reward 20 if you buy tier 6. Each tier down is one reward fewer. So reward 15 is theoretically possible with no gems spent. But you’ll have a very difficult time averaging a x18 multiplier without your bounty captain at high rarity—and that means buying tiers (at least 2, if you don’t mind using orbs to ascend that troop).

2 Likes