GW every other week

I’d like to follow this point up, in particular. Cutting back resources to drive purchases doesn’t work as well as they might have thought because it caused a recession, which even in a game economy, inhibits spending. Then, as things start to level off, new costs get introduced - which actually might work as a stimulus if the costs were universally viewed as a good way to spend. Instead of people having less resources to spend and converting to purchases to fill in the gaps, most will simply cut back on their spending as much as they can. In this case, since the new costs are some of the worst value, this will be one of the things cut if not already. Players need to want to spend their gems in order to want to buy them, no matter how “good a deal” they are (and right now, cash conversion is in the toilet regardless). The way it stands now spending, simply put, feels terrible. People aren’t hype getting a rare troop, they are relieved. You can see this over and over in player sentiment how they are “getting robbed of their gems”, and while I disagree that that is happening here because these sinks are mostly of a voluntary nature (discounting peer pressure, they exist in their own bubble and not participating/performing in one won’t affect other modes too much because the rewards are terrible, and if they weren’t terrible then they would actually be “worth the gems” and then there is no problem.) People aren’t hype getting a rare troop, they are relieved. Both shop revamps and attractive (not manipulative/pushy) ways to spend gems over VIP/Gem chest purchases are needed for the game economy to move toward a position of health.

I’d also like to address this. I mostly agree here, however, a strong case can be made that, if approached from a place of ignorance, these modes are resource traps and blind dead ends for progression. Not many people have bothered doing the math on Zuul’Goth and many might trust out of the gate that it is a thing they can get “eventually” (without realizing “eventually” more than likely means after the game is no longer around)
or that the orb rewards have some overall usefulness greater than the amount of man-hours of effort put in to obtain them (when for the most part they don’t). This bothers me more as a designer - as a player, I can choose to ignore it, but as a designer it is hard to think of this as anything but a beginner’s trap, a way to divert some of the players time away from reaching a goal rather than just adding a goal that is worthy, and these tend to cause frustration and aren’t even effective long term. There are just so many better ways to do this where the designer puts their needs in line with the players wants.

Now, those on the leaderboard with resources to burn… yeah, they should know better, and its on them if they want to spend their gems like this and be out of the running when a more appropriate way to spend gems finally appears and/or they run into a bad unluky streak. If that is what you want to do, have at it. However, nearly all of these are spending gem gluts from the ill-advised bracket 1 guild wars gem prizes. And at the end of the day, sinking these gem gluts off these players with “too many” gems isn’t going to convert to purchases (nobody that ever had 100,000 gems is going to buy 2,000 for $100 except out of a place of both altruism and financial liquidity, no matter how much they sink into new modes) and is, for now at least, totally inaccessible through gems made with cash purchases except if they are unaware just how many it takes to even get to top 100.

To bring this back to the original post, I wish raids and invasions were alternative forms of gameplay that could be done. I’d be a lot happier with them, even in their current iteration. The only thing that bothers me even about the Guild Wars format is the obligation side. It was never competitive for me, nobody will ever convince me that it is competitive. Having the teams you fight being set up entirely by players was bound to be rife with repetition, but there are some varance in brackets 8-10. I like building teams for specific things with some restrictions, I even occasionally enjoy playing out a battle where I’m constantly in a state of disadvantage, which, gameplay wise, I view as core to the mode - not the “competition”. I. Just. Hate. The. Obligation. We have reached a point where, particularly at endgame, the game’s activity hooks are almost the entire game instead of something that gets you started playing and has you branching off into doing stuff that you might make some advancement in. Guild Wars took a long time for our guild to hit a balance where it finally felt “optional” to me to jump in and not affect our placing into a lower or higher bracket, which in turn just made it a better experience over all despite it being the exact same thing it always was, even with occasional days completely full of the same meta team even down in bracket 8-10.

Obligation kills desire. As the feeling obligation fades, and with some proper reward buffing for the act of completing the battles themselves so it doesn’t totally feel like a waste of time, I believe I will start to enjoy Raids and Invasions more (but still think they would be better suited as single player content). Right now, I’d like to see as little of them as possible, so I don’t guilt-trip myself into spending more time than I really should participating in something whether I want to or not and thus I’d rather just see Guild Wars. Basically, the lesser of two evils at this point.

tl;dr: Run whatever event in whatever order they want as long as they don’t feel so obligatory and are such baseline gigantic time sinks.

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I believe their general intent is to boost some of the best deals (for the players) like the Daily 15 gems “subscription”. They leave the option of buying Tier 7 multiple times not as the main goal, just as an option. For the rest of us buying Tier 3 or 4 it can surely affect our gem’s incoming and eventually drive some small purchases of the Daily Gems packages.

Instead of aiming at some purchases of gems for $100 they can probably profit much more with purchases of $5 for gems that surely have a bigger reach and appeal.

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Right, but two problems with this:

  • We’ve inflated too much for something like that to even be attractive. The entire 15 days worth of gems subscription doesn’t even cover a single week of tier 3 buy in, a single week of guild wars sentinel upgrades, or any appreciable measure of troop collection. You barely get a name-change out of it.
  • Tactics like this are rarely effective long term. Until a barrier is reached where the resource is no longer considered “scare” the stuff sinking off the needs to be viewed worth the cost, otherwise it isn’t an effective sink. (I can simply choose not to participate, since shop tiers are one of the worst returns on personal investment for gems period.) Since this barrier basically does not exist (I have nearly 38k gems, and I don’t feel “safe” in my ability to get new troops while they are still relevant because chest drops are “lol RNG” and then soulforge rotation is also “lol RNG”), the sink does not feel rewarding, which is also an important part to draw people in.

Comparing it to other games with similar “daily deal” 5 buck packs type things that offer premium currency, it is off by a factor of at least 3x. All purchases should have been scaled up a long time ago to meet the current baselines. Basically, monetization pretends like the baslines are way, way lower than they are, while in-game costs have no such qualms. Looking at the gem costs of any non-key thing compared to what keys give (being the quickest and cheapest path to what amounts to the ultimate goal of the game at any given time, even though you often need tons of them to do anything), keys win, and therefore almost nothing has the inferred “gem value” given by the devs. Plus, the stuff they keep using to pad out rewards tables (souls, traitstones) leads to them being worthless for an increasing number of people and make them increasingly ill-suited to pad out rewards tables because fewer people actually want them in any capacity. And neither of those have any viable sinks (dawnbringer is a goalpost move, not a sink). All of these need to be addressed.

Again, they need to be aligning the wants of the players with the needs of the developers. The players that “want” orbs have no way to feed the needs of the devs because it is so inaccessible to convert cash into orbs, and the players that “don’t want” them have no reason to seek them out and therefore don’t feed the needs of the devs (other than social pressure from your guild). Like many of their reward systems, it relies way too much on ignorance or altruism because want and need do not properly align in enough people. What I’m saying is that there are way better ways to do this.

I want the new modes to be successful. I want to want to spend my gems here. The costs themselves aren’t the problem, I just don’t want to feel like I’m being strongarmed by making me feel like I have to buy them because I might be depriving my guild of something if I don’t (plus, the tier 3 weapon purchase is akin to negotiating tactics used by used car salesmen), and not because they have inherent value. At the point we are at now, they’d be very hard pressed to sink off my current stash of gems enough to making $5 for 225 gems over two weeks seem even somewhat attractive in a way that didn’t make me feel resentful and never want to spend money ever again.

Well, it looks like I strayed a bit off topic again, so I’ll try to bring it back around. I basically just want content that I can interact with at my own pace. If there is a cap on how much I can consume in a given time period, that is one thing, but tying it to overall game progress that can’t be recouped with gameplay time at an arbitrary point later, or actively hurting others rewards for non-participation makes it an “obligation”. Rewards are barely existent for any of the modes for me, and, right now, for me, Guild Wars has the lowest amount of obligation (I can possibly take weeks off and not hurt my guild at all) and therefore the mode I prefer.

3 Likes

I agree, but what i said is mostly what i guess it’s happening, what could be the logic being followed to make sense of some choices for these models. Unfortunately, the time frame until this proves to be a right or wrong choice is long for our standards as players and the clock is ticking…

This is where i feel there is a “catch” for every player in GoW:
We, generally speaking, want valuable things to spend our resources, but we don’t want content gated only by resource’s expenditure, or like some people heartedly call it “P2W”, so if the devs offer something like Arcane Traitstones in the Shop Tiers some of us will instantly frown because they don’t consider those traitstones valuable, at all, by the simple fact that we can farm it…

So we have, in this simple example, Arcane Traitstones that are offered for gem purchase, but not gated/tied to the use of gems only, therefore not P2W, and yet… After satisfying these conditions the players would, still, not be happy…

Of course there are more variables to be considered, like the current price of some resources not being updated since… well, a long time… But my point is: We, in general, as players tend to give the devs A LOT of misleading signals. And with their best attempts to understand our wishes they can, and most likely will, make mistakes.

And after all that some players will say “Duck” them for not being able to catch the very ellusive and mixed concepts we blurt out everyday! It’s their job to interpret even our sneezes and farts as a signal to do or not do something!" (Just to be clear, i’m not implying you are this kind of player.)

We also don’t know the full extent of the devs’s plans, there is this very possibility that this new content feels so… incomplete… because it’s a step in some direction and as i said the time frame until the next step is too long for us players. Not to say that they shouldn’t or won’t adjust this step, but since we just had our first Raid and Invasion we’ll most likely still endure a few more weeeks until things are better adjusted in regards of our feedback.

1 Like

The crux of the problem is is that the developers should never take player feedback at surface value and always examine the why. Many players won’t actually say what they want, they’ll just say what they think they want, and they’ll often be wrong. For example, everyone keeps saying “more gems” - like, almost universally, when the place most of them are coming from is “I don’t want to miss a troop I really want when it is at its cheapest and most readily available point and have to deal with forced arbitrary waits followed by extreme luck or going through soulforge and all the flaws and/or additional costs therein”. Fixing soulforge to be less abhorrent to interact with as a safety net (and not just as a means of checking off collection boxes or grabbing your first couple power mythics) and adding other alternative means of acquisition that didn’t require entirely frontloaded stashes so that people feel comfortable spending again is what really needs to happen, not “more gems”. Of course, this would also require a reexamination of their monetization tactic hard pushing “now or never” type things, but as I’ve pointed out many times, any given person becomes inoculated to this type of tactic over time.

I’m reminded of the stated reasoning behind Guild Wars top prize being 1500 gems (and make no mistake, these gluts are part of why the Raid/Invasion leaderboard system and shop teirs got implemented the way it did), was that after the lackluster rewards for PvP ranks, people were saying they wanted “big, epic rewards”. In reality, players were almost universally just saying “rewards should be worth the time and effort put in”. Players asked for bracketing out of a desire for meaningful competition within the brackets, that we got is bracketing system that only limits downward and upward movement but didn’t actually reward performance within the brackets. It is part of the reason I feel like I need to be extremely, overly specific sometimes on the why, because the why is the important part.

So I spent all this time ragging on them, let me feature a system that I believe does work well - gold. You get gold pretty much everywhere. Gold has a fixed high value to new players while they are upgrading their kingdoms, then a diminishing returns value based on your guild as time goes on. Legendary tasks effectively sink off gold because they are more effective at building collection resources than gold keys, and you get diminishing returns on legendary tasks as less and less people in your guild match your donations. The economy is flexible enough that a single player earning ten times as much gold as they normally would on any given week would barely influence any long-term goal, while still being somewhat satisfying to build up and spend (so long as you are getting quantities that are somewhat significant to your current standing). The latest task revamps made normal tasks a lot less bottom heavy, and a lot more rewarding to progress into higher numbers. Below a certain threshold, gold feels rewarding to earn and spend, driving the want to earn more, and above that threshold, it still interacts with the game without breaking anything. Its a complete, functional system that had it not been for the fact that they had to directly nerf twice to revamp it to its current state (as well as giving nonsense “gem value” explanations that are almost universally contested), costing a lot of good will and trust, perfectly serves the game and would be for the best long term if they only finally rounded out the other half of it.

tl;dr: It is their job to interpret all the mixed signals and examine why people are giving the feedback that they are, along with the data, and design systems that both feel rewarding to the player and still has room to integrate monetization. Players should always want more than what they have, but not feel like they need more to appropriately play the game. Easier said than done? Perhaps. But it is one thing I believe they have the most room for improvement on, for most the systems this game has.

7 Likes

Totally agree on at least two counts: People are terrible at knowing/articulating what they truly want, and gold still functions well as a currency.

I’m still motivated to earn gold even after putting millions upon millions into my guild! The same cannot be said for souls, minor traitstones, etc.

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That cannot be repeated often enough. More often than not, if you give people what they say they want, the only thing it’ll do is make them realize belatedly that they really don’t want it - cf. kneejerk gnome changes.

I don’t think anyone said they wanted 2 minor traitstones and 100 souls to be added to the drop pool :sweat_smile:

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The simplest way to make this happens is allowing all cards to be crafted in Soulforge at any given time, but i’m not sure if we can avoid the “frontload stash” or “hoarding” in the sense that Mythic cards, for example, have a high value (except you Garg!) and therefore would cost a lot.

As usual all that Mithran has written in this thread is very pertinent and interesting and I agree with most of it.
I would just like to elaborate on a little detail, as the #1 of the invasion LB of last week happen to be in our guild.

We don’t have any reqs concerning the new events. A few of our members have actually had fun with the new events and in competing in the LB, maybe because these were the first weeks.
However the general opinion in our guild is that it doesn’t matter at all if we finish the event on Monday or on Sunday and most have probably not gone further that tier 3 or 4 in the shop.

We do have a few members who have huge quantities of gems. However, although we finish each week in the top 3 of bracket 1, it is not thanks to GW at all. Even if I agree that the system of rewards is very unfair for the other brackets and should be completely reviewed.
Most of the gems we get each week are

  • reinvested in leveling our sentinels
  • used for purchasing the packs in dungeons
  • dilapidated in chests when a new mythic is released
    Many of our “new” players (by new I mean who have started playing less than 1-2 years ago) are “rather poor” (I put " " because I know that it is relative and that we are not in a position to complain at all) and are lacking gems and can’t afford to max their sentinels in GW some weeks.

Those of our members who have a huge stack of gems are all veterans who were already in our guild - or in another top guild - before the new system of guild tasks has been implemented. That is when we could complete as many tasks as we wanted each week and when the ressources were virtually infinite for the top guilds (that was even more unfair that the system of GW rewards, which is why I think it is a good thing that the task system has been changed) that they constituted their fortune in gems.

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A lot of people said “we want more gnomes and we don’t mind you adding smaller rewards to get them”…

Shot ourselves in the foot when it came to vault event… and vault keys have lower value as such.

I almost want to say that player feature requests should be banned from that disaster… but sometimes someone thinks of something pretty fun which wouldn’t cause a problem down the line… like the explore again button