Considerations arising from today's excellent Q&A

Hey everyone,

I greatly enjoyed the Q&A stream, and I hope you did too. While there was some great stuff in there, I also spotted some problems.

Here’s some of the questions I asked but didn’t get answered, plus some other stuff.

  1. “It makes me sad that I’ve totally forgotten most of the story quests, – they were such fun. Any thoughts on opening them up with no rewards and optional battles? Just for the fun of the dialogue.

The reason I asked it this way is because Sirrian has said he doesn’t want to make quests replayable unless there’s some kind of new reward attached. I want to replay it just to experience the story again – no need for any new rewards or goals at all. I suspect Sirrian may not realise the attraction of this – assuming I’m not the only one.

  1. “Will we get a Class for Wargare, Elemental or Construct?”

Hearing that there will be no new kingdoms (I thought making space for new kingdoms was the primary motivation for changing the map in 4.0?!), and that we won’t double up on classes, this becomes a really big issue. Especially because an Elemental Class would be brilliant for certain teams (not in PvP, but in other modes). And… poor, neglected Wargare. :frowning:

  1. “How do we know why someone just posted a team to Global? There’s no way to caption it, and Chat moves fast.”

I just think this will be a big problem and it’s worth starting to think about a solution right now. I like the way Discord does it when posting images.

  1. “Can we stop non-Treasure troops dropping from Chaos Shards once they’re fully maxed?”

This is really a psychological issue. Obviously, dropping more Treasure Troops is not the answer, but substituting small chunks of Glory (for example) would easily stop the groans. :slight_smile:

  1. “Why do the Adventure Board and Team Management dialogue introduce GUI elements that are not present anywhere else in the game?”

I didn’t ask this on-stream, but I feel some of this breaches very fundamental GUI design rules. Which is especially odd when it would be so easy to fix.

a) Pale buttons on Team Mgt should have standard backgrounds.
b) Team code looks like a text box but isn’t; make it look like a button.
c) Green right-arrow on Adventure Board has a totally unexpected behaviour.
d) Lower adventure board panels lead to battles, which is totally unexpected if you don’t already know.

  1. My question that couldn’t be understood was a couple of off-the-cuff ideas for making Pure Faction Delves easier.

Specifically, since adding Hero to the team with no restrictions would make it too easy (Sentinel with Mang can solo most level 500 Delves, with a bit of luck), my idea is to allow Hero but with tight restrictions. The primary benefit is that you don’t need to add a new troop to the Faction (maybe a new weapon, for option b).

Here’s some specific – and independent – ideas, on a similar theme:
a) When in a Delve, if all troops are Pure Faction, activate the Talents of the Class assigned to that team, even though the Hero isn’t in the team.
b) Allow Hero in the team, but it must use a specific weapon, or a weapon from a Kingdom tied to the Faction – or the Faction weapon, or a new Faction-only weapon.
c1) Allow Hero in the team, but force the player to use a specific Class.
c2) Maybe Hero must use the Class weapon, or a weapon of the Class weapon colour.

  1. We have some new resource issues now. :frowning:

a) Using Diamonds to craft previous event weapons is very, very painful for early end-game players like me: we really need those Diamonds for Mythics! (I’m still missing 19! Not counting duplicates.)

Contrary to what Sirrian said, there is a hard cap for how many Diamonds we can earn, detailed here: Gems of War Quick Reference Tables

Random Gnomes do not drop enough Diamonds to significantly affect this.

Short answer is, we need an increase in Diamond drop rates to compensate for the poor choice (my personal opinion) for how weapons are brought back. I’m afraid Soulforge feels to me like a lazy and inappropriate choice, that also disadvantages newer players.

b) If there’s no longer a limit to the number of Doom weapons, we need a new way to get Forge Scrolls.

Prior to Potions messing it all up, my Guild got on ToD leaderboard three times (near the bottom), yet we did not get enough Forge Scrolls to max the weapon. To a completionist, it’s really painful to think that we will never be able to max all Doom weapons. :cry:

  1. End-Game Resource Sinks.

I worry. I think both Potions and Epic Battles would have been a perfect end-game resource sink (for Traitstones, or anything else). Both opportunities have been missed.

I believe a proper, effective, end-game resource sink must give a useful benefit that is, above all, temporary. I hope the reasons are obvious.

  1. Tacet’s question about increasing High-Level Delve rewards.

Personally, I don’t think the problem is as big as Tacet does. I think it makes perfect sense to stop doing Daily Delves once every Faction is maxed.

It takes around 8,000 Chaos Shards (usually less) to get four of each Faction Troop at Mythic. Any Chaos Shards spent beyond that are only because you want more Treasures for your Hoard. Even then, I’m sure reaching Hoard Level 200 won’t require more than about 20,000 Chaos Shards per Faction (probably far less).

I have 40,000 Chaos Shards, simply by doing all Faction Events (some at 4am, all Tuesdays at Tier I) and doing lots of farming of Warrens. When do I stop the farming? Probably once I have all the other Delves to L500 (haven’t had the time).

Anyway, my point is, if you do the maths, I believe there is a break-even point where weekly Faction Events alone can get you enough Chaos Shards to cover all future needs. So there’d no longer be any need to do Daily Delves. This could come as a relief to many end-game players!!!

If there’s still a problem, the simple solution is to increase the number of Chaos Shards gained during weekly Faction Events (or even Faction launch events alone).

  1. Sign-off

What do other people think? Which points do you agree with? Which do you disagree? Do you have better solutions to some of the issues?


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And the reason you/players stop doing them is because its not worth the time investment for the 1x reward 500 gives.

If it scaled properly, then you shouldn’t want to stop doing Daily Delves even if a Faction is maxed.

I can live without any extra “Resource Sinks” this game doesn’t already have. Doesn’t typically end well.

Weapons can also be purchasable with real cash, so I don’t see them doing anything to adjust the diamond gain rate to craft weapons too.

Just let them handle that please.

Click on a Kingdom’s Quests to see all of their dialogue. Waiting for them to implement that will take forever and reopening quests for no rewards is a waste for a majority of the players and a waste of dev time too as there is no real benefit to their bottom line for something most players wouldn’t touch.


a) Using Diamonds to craft previous event weapons is very, very painful for early end-game players like me: we really need those Diamonds for Mythics!

On PS4 we will likely have no choice because we do not get flash offers. The good news is that there only several dozen worthwhile weapons and most of them are rather recent. Completionism in this game is something many PS4 players gave up on a long time ago. I am just glad we will now have a way to access old weapons.

Tacet’s question about increasing High-Level Delve rewards.

I am concerned if they decide to scale rewards to the level of the faction because they likely will nerf rewards for lower levels rather than actually increase higher level delve rewards. I am quite happy having my one low level farming faction and then maxing out the rest. I hope they never touch this.

Hearing that there will be no new kingdoms (I thought making space for new kingdoms was the primary motivation for changing the map in 4.0?!), and that we won’t double up on classes, this becomes a really big issue.

Interesting if that is the route they are deciding to go, especially since a new class release is a weekend event. I wonder what they would replace it with? Classes after awhile will become quite samey anyway.


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That’s quite a condescending reply, @TheIdleOne. While they do some amazing things (many of which are in the new patch), they also do make some pretty strange mistakes.

But thank you for the story link. (I think the xbox part of the link may not be needed.)

I was thinking of doing a video of the story elements – yes, I do really want to remember the story and lore. I don’t think enabling replays of the story in-game is necessarily as difficult as you make out – a couple of extra progress pointers, a new GUI element and a second-run rewards table – but obviously, I’m not familiar with the actual code.

You also mention value for the devs’ bottom line. I think it’s pretty clear that’s not a strong motivation for them. They’ve done heaps of things that have no obvious effect on player spending – and deliberately NOT done heaps of things that would. But it’s also important to factor in the indirect effects.

Game design is a psychological game. While many devs focus on the psychology of addiction, there’s also a lot of psychology in: reducing obstacles to play, making people feel heard or rewarded, engaging them in the world (hence story replays, for when we forget), drip-feeding concepts, building a sense of various communities, etc, etc.

Serious question though: what reward could be worth what my imagination tells me level 500 is like?

1,000,000 gold? I can’t imagine any souls, glory, or even traitstones being worth it. How long until chaos shards aren’t wanted, either, at the rate they might be given out? I feel like we need a new currency just to satifsy this request.

But at the same time I’ve always been shocked rewards don’t scale, so I support it. I just can’t figure out what it means.

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I like the 3rd point
I don’t understand the 4th point
I like point 7
Point 9 I am with tacet on increasing rewards as it’s more sense to receive higher reward for higher battles
The rest I am neutral

Epic Ingots until they are all maxed lol.

Diamonds for those that need things from Soul Forge.

Chaos Orbs that are not growth.

OK, but how many of each? Keep in mind there has to be something to motivate a player to go from 100 to 200, 200 to 300, etc.

I think the diamonds per day it’d take to make me want to reach 500 is far more than the devs want to hand out.

Sirrian said in the stream he had 2 options for the delve rewards:

  1. Have a gradual increase in rewards to getting what we get now at end. But the rewards are basically nothing at the start of delves in that case making people not want them.

  2. Even it out, which is what they done.

Basically the way it works, is ever chest level gets a pull from the reward table, so possibly making chest levels more often and higher than 10 may be an option (Sirrian said 12 on stream but currently 10 is cap)

Adding more things and the multiplier giving a bit more rewards, would be nice as well.

Im at the point now, where I dont do delves outside of the events, because I cant max what I have to max due to it being next to impossible to do without massive amounts of luck


Ok here are my points on a few of these:

  1. Class rework was covered briefly and that it is something they want to do. I think if any rework happens, then its needed to be so that each race has a class for it. We also have like 9 more classes to be released, and shit changes constantly before release, so is a chance that 1 of the 1s coming will be changed to reflect this.

  2. You wont, and this is the downside of the chat in game at times, it moves fast and people will have to scroll back up looking for why something was posted.

  3. I dont think there is any resource that would be a good replacement for maxed troops dropping from shards. Glory doesnt fit the rewards from those portals. Id be happy with more treasure troops though tbh if it was to be added.

  4. I have a thread based around making pure faction delves easier

  5. I dont see this as an issue for diamonds. It was the logical addition, and honestly the only way it was going to happen, the only thing that shocked me, was that it didnt require an entire Soul Forge rework. Being able to remove the epic weapons and rotate others that way was a smart idea and an elegant fix.
    b) Yes forage scrolls need to show up somewhere else as obtainable. Maybe the Adventure board is a decent place for this to be done.

  6. The only way anymore resource sinks are needed, is if there is interchangeable resources, such as how Ingots work in the soule forge. With Souls for instance, its natural that you get an over abundance of them, as they are only used in small amounts for crafting once you have everything leveled. Active players will always be able to grind enough to get excess resources so that they have heaps for any occurrence.

  7. I think your view on this is wrong tbh. I do agree with TheIdleOne. As it stands there is almost 0 reason to do delves outside of getting renown. The rewards for the difficulty at that level are not adequate. There is no point in having modes in the game that are no longer fun to play, it is as Sirrian stated it, just bad design. Everything in the game should be fun enough to want to play. Delves to me are fun, I really enjoy the challenge, but once I have finished the delves, and I am running low on time, why should I spend an hour a day playing 3 delves for little reward??

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Here I will retell ALL the story quests to you.
“Can I join you to go to this new crazy place?”
“Sure I guess”
“Let’s go find the crazy boss but first fight all his minions”
“Ok I guess”
“Look there is the boss let’s kill him”
“Nice job killing that boss I will now join you”


i read 0% of the quest dialogue but I’m inclined to believe you.

Thanks for everyone’s thoughts. :slight_smile:

@PeperandSalt - Point 4, I was thinking that getting more copies of Faction troops, once you already have them all at 4x Mythic, feels crappy. Ideally, we’d love to see them just replaced with more Treasures, but I don’t think they’d do that. I reckon they could replace them with anything and we’d feel a bit better, but Glory would be a nice option.

@Smash - I kind of assume you meant 9 rather than 8. :man_shrugging: I kind of see two options (other than leaving it alone) with Daily Delves: either they increase the rewards for higher levels so we stop farming Warrens; or they provide an alternative so we don’t have to do Daily Delves at all once all Factions are L500. I think I would prefer the latter. I’d be quite happy to do zero Daily Delves if we got enough Chaos Shards from Tuesday Faction Assaults to keep pace with new Faction releases. Unfortunately, that number is about 8,000 Chaos Shards per month. So it’s probably a bit more than they can give us (would make for a very long Tuesday!). I don’t know how they would make Daily Delves fun to continue once they’re done.

As for resource sinks (7), I mention it only because other people (including the devs?) keep talking about it. Maybe it’s just Tacet. Regardless, as others have pointed out, Dawnbringer is not a resource sink because it’s a one-off purchase. Potions could have been purchased with Traitstones (for example), but they chose a different route.

On classes (2), that’s a good point, Smash. They might decide to change Warden to Wargare, for example. But I’m not certain they’re even aware of the problem, because they simply haven’t said a thing about it (that I’ve heard).

@Sinnycool - Not a connoisseur of witty dialogue, I see. :stuck_out_tongue:

What about :
Hey, i want you to go and get me centaurs for my chariot, an Ubastet pet, and Krystenax’s tail. Now!

(Figure out which kingdom quest line is that inspired from :wink: )

I don’t know but now I really want an adorably ferocious tiny armored kitty named Ubaspet.


Yeah I think I stuffed up my numbers a bit lol.

Every month this is what happens for me with new factions:

I get ~12k chaos shards, I then spend enough to get all troops to mythic, and then maybe an extra 1-2k shards for treasure troops, depending on how many I got during the rush to get all the troops to mythic.

With not doing dailys, I get up to ~12k shards again. Currently sitting at 12,944 shards, and didnt do 1 of the events during the week, and spent extra to get more treasure so I could push ASE Hoard to 199.

I think getting the shards is fine, once they are all mythic, you can hoard them for new factions coming out. Newer players tend to not even bother pushing them all to mythic and just get them all and then hoard them as well.

I have 40K Chaos Shards.

All Hoards at L100 except one, that I pushed to 150. Just can’t bring myself to drop more Treasures to get to L200, nor spend more Chaos Shards beyond 4x Mythic. I need a more solid reason than I’ve heard so far – esp. with the promised, “we’ll make Pure Factions easier.”

So I did some research. The weapon issue may not be as bad as I thought.

I’ve been playing for a year. Earth’s Fury was the last Event weapon I missed (very pissed off, when I figured that out!). There have been 26 Raid and Invasion weapons since then – 5 or 6 are good. So I’m excluding all of those.

I’m missing 18 Epic weapons and 32 Legendary weapons. 6 Kingdoms have 2 Legendaries that I’m missing. So on average, I need to buy roughly 1 Legendary and half an Epic weapon each week under the new system.

Of course, if the Legendaries cost 800 Diamonds, that’s still way more than the nominal 708 Diamonds we earn each week, so I guess I’ll have to be very selective.

The other thing is, I’m definitely going to return to paying 50 Gems for 24 Diamonds every day in the Dungeon. Mon-Sat gives you 144 Diamonds for 300 Gems, whereas buying two extra Guild Event tiers is only 50 Diamonds for 850 Gems (above the weapon on Tier IV).