# Archer vs Gloom Leaf

I just had a game where my Archer triggered Bullseye (3rd trait) on Gloom Leaf.
Boom, Gloom Leaf killed instantly, but i was unpleasantly surprised to see my Archer gets killed aswell. Gloom Leaf activated it’s third trait, Thorns, backfired all damage. I don’t think that supposes to happen…

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Lethal is likely set in the game as a high amount of damage, such as 9999 or something. It does make sense that half an instant kill is still an instant kill. Half an infinity is still infinity, theoretically.

Yeah, it makes sense why it’s happening. But should be half of the total damage dealt.

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I freezed for one moment, holy f\$\$\$ what just happened

You are probably right about that 9999 dmg @Tacet.

Infinity is an undetermined number so theoretically it’s impossible to have half of infinity.

Besides, like you said, there’s a cap to the damage (9999) because you can’t put infinity into computer code. Plus 4999 damage should be enough to kill anything anyway considering you can’t get much higher than 2000 combined Life and Armor.

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That is the exact point I was making earlier. Half would still be whole, which is why 50% of thorns taking “infinite” damage is still instant death. That is just the mental argument for it. The data argument is like I said with it just being a large number. All of this was mostly in reply to:

With the response being that half an “infinite” can’t exist and is still “infinite” i.e. an instant kill reversal.

Bottom line, I think it is working fine.

Strictly speaking infinity isn’t a number at all, in conventional number systems, but a concept used to describe behaviour when numbers can be allowed to be arbitrarily large.

There’s a branch of mathematics (cardinality theory) that works with infinity as a form of numbers. There are different ‘sizes’ of infinity, which is pretty mind-blowing… And maths with infinity can give very silly answers

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I disagree, I think that’s a bug. Either (1) an insta-kill should do so without dealing damage (and so not trigger any rebound damage on Gloom Leaf’s trait), or (2) the damage should equal the target’s hit points and so the rebound is half of that…

Personally the first of these sounds far more appropriate. Does suggest the question, what happens if you Devour a trained Gloom Leaf? Does it rebound and kill you?

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It wouldn’t. Devour isn’t damage, it is an ability. Even when done as his trait it counts as a devour rather than instant kill. That is like saying a casted ability would rebound the 50%. Devour and “infinite” skull damage are two completely different things.

That is also why it is justifiable that lethal kills itself on 50%. If you did multiple skull pairs it would still kill you even if that 50% is below your total HP/armor.

I agree that it shouldn’t rebound, but has anyone tried it / can confirm in game?

By the same concept, I think an insta-kill isn’t damage and shouldn’t rebound either, hence the OP is a bug…

@Sirrian care to enlighten us?

I still find it to be fine.

The only glitch I have seen with thorns is that it can trigger early on mass skulls. If Gloom Leaf is for instance in the 2nd slot with trait, killing the first slot with many skulls at once can kill the attacker’s first 1-3 troops without even doing a spec of damage to the Gloom Leaf. It is basically the old mass skull glitch in reverse.

I think he should’ve received (HP+Armor)/2 damage as Gloom Leaf would do to any other troop that one-shot him. But I see the argument for insta-kill being a special case where GL should’ve dealt 0 damage. Dying yourself seems like the one thing that should not happen.

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Also, it specifies skull damage.

Oh, that’s a great point. I’d forgotten it was only Skull damage. In that case, it definitely shouldn’t do any damage, much less insta-kill.

Actually, Archer’s trait does not say ‘insta-kill’ (or ‘infinite damage’ or anything else implied in this thread), instead, the exact wording is ‘chance for skull damage to be lethal’, which, as I understand it, means it actually counts as skull damage, but guaranteed to be high enough to be lethal. I believe this means the damage should indeed count as the exact life+armor of the killed troop.

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I think it’s arguable whether it should do (GL’s Health+Armour)/2 or nothing, or maybe half of normal Attack damage from skulls, but definitely there’s a bug that I hope devs will address. Moreover:

Usually it is, but I’m worried about Great Maw’s third trait The animation while using Devour (from spell) looks like it deals a lot of damage to the opponent. If it works the same way with skull-Devour it could backfire somehow.

It’s slightly off-topic here, but that’s not the only ability that triggers that way. You can easily see it with Stone Skin and such (which is immaterial), but I also encountered it with Sheggra’s Molten and I think with BD’s Frozen Soul:

Definitely needs fixing too.

Devour is still devour though. It is independent from the attack damage just like how burn, poison, etc. are. The difference with lethal is that it is not any form of effect; rather, it is just a very large amount of extra skull damage or something of the like. Devour, even when triggered by skulls, still acts as an effect. At most, the attack damage would be reflected, but the devour damage would not.

Well, I agree with you - but I wasn’t stating how it should work, but pointing out a possible bug. Unless you tested it or looked into the code you can never be completely sure…

Personally I would love to see a great maw devour itself. If it ate its potential would it have infinite stats.

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Funny that we had that conversation and I didn’t spot that of course our devs are InfinityPlus2…

Mind you… Infinity +2 just equals infinity…