So, how can the current meta be topped?

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My points were neither based around Mercy (worst/best case scenario, depending on which team it’s on), or Moloch’s position in the meta. Yes, I know that Moloch is not the most powerful card in the meta, and yes, that we have more powerful cards around these days, but hear me out.

I had a version of this post half-written comparing it to both Bat and Manticore, but Moloch was a better direct comparison. Bat gains health on cast and Manticore gains attack while having a weaker version of the mana drain effect. Taking these into account resulted in a far longer and more confusing post involving more math and mental gymnastics than I figured most people would want to follow.

I would have had to calculate the average mana value per attack point gained as well as the value mana for each point of life gained, not to be confused with the same thing for healing, which is another potential pitfall I might have to explain, and more variables makes the whole thing messy.

My point that his effect is double that of a card with the same cost and rarity then some. It does not matter how good or bad the card is. I know the analysis would’ve been more relatable by saying that he has the utility of a double Manticore, and then some because it’s a full drain, and then more by comparing it to Bat. But the numbers come out to like 4.203 true damage per point of mana on bat with a string of trailing decimals and 3.564 yadda yadda for Khorvash and nothing comes out clean. Don’t quote the decimals, by the way, that was math from before I napped, so the numbers may be off.

If you would like to illustrate said point using Manticore and Bat, then I encourage you to. But that might also involve making a table of almost every troop in the game that gains life, gains attack, drains mana, deals true damage, stuns, etc. Moloch is just an easier comparison. And the fact that you get two of any ability and change for the same amount of mana is just nuts.

My point stands.

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@Kurokazna

You are arguing with Khorvash abusers, that’s why they can’t see your point.

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People just don’t wanna admit how silly it is being able to effectively control half of the enemy team with full mana drain + stun while hammering them at the same time.

Once you have an EK there is very little reason to not build a team with him because he is the perfect offensive character with both strong troop control and damage on top of him having a great set of traits.

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When people talk about the meta, are they referring to offense or defense?

Seems to me it must refer to defense, since that is the part of the game players have no control over, and as such would get most frustrated with. Nobody has ever complained that they had to use Mercy on their invade team all the time – they could have switched to a slightly slower team if it bothered them that much!

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So, when i was arguing with you, and others, about how unbalanced Manticore was i can safely assume that you were expecting to be a “Manticore abuser”, since you went very far defending it from being rebalanced. I wonder if now you are being trully concerned about Khorvash being unbalanced…

On that case, Manticore’s case, my main point was how easily it was to recharge Manticore’s mana plus some factual benefits the troop had (Impervious, Attack gain, easily obtained since it’s an ultra-rare) that were not dependent of some casual benefits like Kurokazna was pointing, that’s why i don’t think the analisys were good to begin with. Not saying that an occasional rebalance to his damage, and maybe even mana drain is not due… If i correctly recall @Jainus was one the first to comment about Khorvash being over the top.

As i said before:

The thing is that counting the Magic Bonus from the Purple Task should be out of equation since realistically few guilds would finish it. The gain in souls is far from being a good deal dividing the souls per gold invested and not every guild would gather so much money to complete more important tasks to a point where they can consider using the rest on the purple tasks. Blessing will not always trigger on Magic, so being random as that i don’t think it does any good.

On that i think it’s all about how good Moloch should be to be almost on equal foot with the new legendaries.
For example Famine drains mana of the entire team, Khorvash of the two upfront troops and Moloch does to any troop, but his total damage will be always inferior to Khorvash and Crimson Bat speaking of damage only.
So, if you agree Kurokazna i think it would be more pratical to discuss the issue using these troops, Khorvash, Famine, Crimson Bat (for damage) and Moloch. That’s what i think.

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My guild has actually decided to complete purple and only purple each week. For the levelling of the statue and for the magic bonus. It is the best static statue bonus for growing players.
So don’t be so sure.

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If you’re referring to what I said about Mercy:

Else:
Refer to first video, and please explain what you mean

Refer here:

Also, even without the increased magic bonus from kingdoms, its relation to other troops is practically unchanged. It is still a double Moloch with two stuns, with or without the two bonus magic. My statement about that was an example of worst case scenario and how ridiculous it can get late game.

I believe I have already said that Mercy was an example of worst case scenario twice at this point. Once earlier in this post and once prior. This is dangerously close to https://youtu.be/_tcBsryYd6s

Blatantly https://youtu.be/KeswYJgf5mM and again, edging in on https://youtu.be/_tcBsryYd6s

However, @Velkyn is now working on comparing Khorvash’s stats to Bat’s, and I think is soon going to do the same for Famine and other troops.

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Hmmm, Ill throw some originality out here. A mind enslaving metal loving vampiric troop that has a chance to move an enemies troop to your team. If you have a bombot shaped hole in your team, could be nice. :wink:

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Also like in magic gathering, would be nice if the servers “conveniently” forget to give the other players card backa fter the game is over hahaha.

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@Ivar

I’m a Console player so we have none of these OP Troops except pre-nerf Maw.

I’m also known for my creative team building, in both offense and defense.

Time for a new theory.

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Hmmm… To provide a better perspective: do your guildmates have all the kingdoms with magic bonuses at five stars? Right now these kingdoms have enough troops to reach these stars with souls and a few traits making it an easy goal and giving a permanent bonus.

Here, you have the answer. The relation of new troops compared against the old will always factor in this way unless some effort is put to make a compensation on the old veterans. To keep the game fresh the devs must come with new and creative ideas, some will make old compositions irrelevant or even hard to play with. Is it a surprise that Spirit Fox is empowered, drains mana and removes yellow mana from the board sometme after Maw’s debut?

Yeah, yeah… I must ask: Is there a “throw videos to support my opinion falacy” yet? I understand how some bits of my posts falls on the falacy category, but this last part it stinged me (even though i’m assuming i didn’t made myself clear so it’s on me the blame for that), because i suggested a better construction of Khorvash’s case:

Why? Because Moloch and Bat are old school troops, Bat recently received an upgrade, but it’s still mostly the same, so his example could be followed by Moloch at some point, i’'m not trying to change the subject, i just think there is plenty of room for improvement of old cards that can’t really compete with new ones and while we are discussing Khrovash we could, maybe, find an idea of what Moloch could become.
Khorvash and Famine are from a new generation of cards and a power level recently introduced, but what make them so different is the rarity and amount of resources needed to unlock their powers. Even without similar powers, speaking of traits, if it would help comparing the power of Stun status. This could help on directing the discussion like:

“What if Khorvash wouldn’t stun the second troop, like if the damage is just the reverberation of the full attack to the first troop? Would it be good enough as a form of rebalance? He could still stun the second troop with his traits so the loss wouldn’t be so great for his entire composition.”

What do you think?

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That’s not what I’m talking about at all. Though I can see how I might have misrepresented my point. What I meant was that the addition or loss of those two points of magic do not change how it compares to other troops by very much. Khorvash loses two magic? His ability is still double Moloch’s when Moloch has the same bonuses or lack thereof. I am not saying that newer troops are not stronger. No, power creep is definitely a thing.

My point was and still is that his ability is double that of another troop of the same rarity and then some, with a body comparable to Gorgotha’s. I am not saying that everything should scale to Moloch, or that Moloch is even a good measuring stick. I know he’s under powered, but the fact that even an underpowered troop is less than half of something with the same mana cost and rarity is kind of insane. I made the comparison to Moloch simply because it was the easiest one to explain without overly complicated math. If you want to see how Khorvash stacks up against other troops, as said, there is a thread by @Velkyn (that I can now link here ) that explores relations with other troops. Specifically, Bat for damage has been written out so far, and I believe that he was working on Manticore next, then probably Famine.

Now this, I completely agree with.

In regards to this, stunning the second troop is rarely the problem when he casts. I like the idea in theory, but what causes a lot of frustration is the double mana drain. The concept is sound, though. So what if, instead, both the stun and the mana drain only applied to the first troop? That might bring him down to a healthier place on the power curve. I also think he could deal with losing a couple points of magic, or maybe increasing the ability cost, even if only to 15 so that he can’t be filled in two matches with only a plus one banner

Also, I apologize for any snappishness earlier. I was admittedly in a fairly sour mood, this discussion and several misunderstandings only worsened that, and I shouldn’t have taken it out on some random person I don’t know. I’m not going to make excuses, but please understand that I wasn’t exactly at my best, especially at the time that reply. Again, I am sorry.

Reading back through everything, I think that the main problem we’re running into is the difference between “Nerf things to keep them in line with the power curve” and “Buff things to make them more relevant in today’s meta and in comparison to newer troops.”

To which I ultimately respond

Moloch could be deserving of a rework. But at the same time, I think that Khorvash is still ahead of the present power curve of the game. I cannot demonstrate that directly without trying to create arbitrary values for stuns, full mana drains, and true damage individually and adding them up in a huge cross-examination of a bunch of troops. I was trying to keep it simple by comparing it to something with an ability that was easier to compare side by side without referencing other troops and writing a five page long essay to split and define different parts of different abilities in terms that would be more easily comparable to eachother. That is too much work for me.

Thankfully, @Velkyn seems to be enjoying himself while doing exactly that. So, I would like to once again point you in the direction of the other thread where he is doing that.

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Yes. I’m having fun over there. Just thought I’d let you know.

But screw creating arbitrary values for stuns, full mana drains, and true damage. Because that is too much work. Listing pros and cons? Sure. Giving not-numbers numbers? No.

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I cant speak for the others but I don’t have anything at five yet. Zhul just gor four and more than half are three. Souls are the most limiting factor there

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I use Khorvash too, but often he sits doing nothing for almost the entire fight until he kills the last or last two targets.
I wouldn’t mind losing his damage output completely, just keep him as tank and control.

Also, don’t underestimate the power of being free to choose who to drain mana from (Moloch, limited to non-Stealthy ofcourse) versus a fixed hitting of the first two.

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I feel bad for my old friend Moloch. Traited him and used him a bunch in the past but had to put him back on the shelf.

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If they buff dolk’s damage, the meta would still not include him, sniff.

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whats a dolk?

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Something so powerful that his full name cannot be mentioned…

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Dokkalfar, he deals 10 split damage and also summons a lvl x giant spider. Also his traits are sorta meh, immune to web and poison. He also has demon pact. Not sure how strong the ancient horror is when it is summoned. Also i hope they buff ancient horror as well.