Emperor Khorvash Versus... (Troop Name Here)

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Over here, @Kurokazna started comparing Moloch and Emperor Khorvash, in a discussion about the current meta of the game on PC/Mobile and that Khorvash is an extremely high powered troop. @Ivar countered with the idea of comparing Emperor Khorvash to Famine, Crimson Bat (for damage), Manticore, and Moloch rather than just Moloch because Moloch is an older legendary and therefore might not be an accurate measuring stick to compare new legendaries to. (Due to power creep and things like that.)

I was going to post my own comparisons on that thread, but decided that I really didn’t want to derail it that badly. So. Instead, I’ll try doing some breakdown type things of Khorvash versus Famine, Bat, Manticore, and Moloch.

Mind you, I’m not as good at this as some people, and I certainly don’t have enough numbers or data to try to tell anyone definitively whether or not Khorvash is better than a given troop. And, of course, my opinion is going to be sprinkled throughout the entire thing, heavily bias towards utility being incredibly good versus straight power.

I’m also not trying to get Khorvash nerfed. I like Khorvash. He is an absolutely incredible troop.

And I’m really really sorry for the wall o’ text.

Khorvvy-Chan versus Bat… Fight!

So, first we’re going to make a couple of assumptions to get everything on equal footing. All comparisons are going to be done assuming that both troops are of mythic quality, no guild bonuses, no kingdom bonuses, no same troop type bonuses, no unique-troops-from-a-kingdom bonuses. Traits will be taken into account (specifically Khorvash’s leader, because he really ought to be run in first slot in my opinion, or it’s simply a waste of a trait) where they can be.

Emperor Khorvash

  • Level 20 (Mythic)
  • Attack: 18 (21)
  • Life: 20 (23)
  • Armor: 25 (28)
  • Magic: 9 (12)

Traits

  • Leader (+3 to all stats if in first slot)
  • Stoneskin (50% less damage from skulls)
  • Lion’s Wrath (Stun on 4-5 gem matches)

Crown of Anu (14 Blue/Brown)
Deal (magic+3) true damage to the first 2 enemies. Stun them and drain their mana.

Crimson Bat

  • Level 20 (Mythic)
  • Attack: 17
  • Life: 27
  • Armor: 17
  • Magic: 7

Traits

  • Divine Slayer (Double skull damage versus divine)
  • Cursed (All enemies lose 2 random skill points)
  • Bloodsucking (Deal double skull damage to wounded enemies.)

Blood Feast (15 Blue/Red)
Deal (Magic+1) True damage to all enemies, Gain 16 life

Khorvash has 11 armor on Bat, with Bat having 4 more life and a self-heal in his ability cast. Flat numbers wise, Khorvash beats Bat in tankiness, until you start taking Bat’s self-heal into account and whether or not skull damage is a factor.

Khorvash has a flat out higher attack, though Bat theoretically deals more skull damage (after a cast of Blood Feast or similar). That makes Bat a little bit less reliable for skull damage, but theoretically higher.

For traits, I’m inclined to say that Khorvash’s traits are just better. Cursed is luck of the draw on what it hits (though the loss of 8 skill points to the enemy team is significant), and Divine Slayer requires a divine troop to be taking skull damage. Bloodsucking is good, but also requires enemy troops to take damage. Once again, making Bat’s skull damage significantly less reliable than Khorvash’s.

Khorvash on the other hand has Leader (effectively 12 skill points for him being in first slot) and Stoneskin, neither of which necessitate any work on the user’s part to become “active,” so to speak. So long as Khorvash is in your first slot, those two traits will very likely provide value. Considering that Khorvash is a blue troop, it’s incredibly likely that you’re running a Valkyrie as well, which results in Lion’s Wrath proccing semi-frequently to completely negate some enemy’s traits (which are often what makes certain team compositions and specific troops difficult to deal with). I’m of the mind that Khorvash’s first two traits build very nicely on each other which definitely helps.

Now we get to the real comparison here. Crown of Anu versus Blood Feast. (And Blood Feast is a much easier ability to quantify, by the way.)

In terms of damage, Crown of Anu results in (nearly) a 1 to 2.143 ratio of mana to damage.

Blood Feast? 1 mana to 2.134 damage. (Of course, this goes down slightly as you have less enemy troops on the team, to 1 to 1.6 with three enemies, 1 to 1.067 with two enemies, and down to a terrible 1 to 0.534 when you have just one enemy, but that’s an expected drop off.)

Pure numbers wise? Khorvash’s Crown of Anu is slightly more mana efficient than Blood Feast.

Now we get to the more complicated parts of this, however. The math to back up my next statement would be difficult, as it would necessitate comparing all of the troops that exist in Gems of War and determining mathematically whether 16 life is more effective than two mana drains and two stuns.

(I’ll be incredibly honest and tell you that I value the two stuns and mana drain far more than 16 life.)

TL;DR: Bat gains life and hits all enemies, but by the numbers, Khorvash is (barely) more efficient. (Plus has far more utility.) Bat has the potential to be tankier, however that varies with enemy team composition.

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Khorvvy-Chan versus Moloch… Fight!

This comparison will start with the same set of assumptions as the previous one, which amounts to both troops being mythic, traited, fully leveled, but with no other bonuses. Traits will be taken into account when it’s viable to do so.

Also note. Moloch is an older legendary troop.

Emperor Khorvash

  • Level 20 (Mythic)
  • Attack: 18 (21)
  • Life: 20 (23)
  • Armor: 25 (28)
  • Magic: 9 (12)

Traits

  • Leader (+3 to all stats if in first slot)
  • Stoneskin (50% less damage from skulls)
  • Lion’s Wrath (Stun on 4-5 gem matches)

Crown of Anu (14 Blue/Brown)
Deal (magic+3) true damage to the first 2 enemies. Stun them and drain their mana.

Moloch

  • Level 20 (Mythic)
  • Attack: 18
  • Life: 22
  • Armor: 24
  • Magic: 5

Traits

  • Fireproof (Immune to Burning)
  • Fire Link (Gain bonus Red mana from Red Gem matches.)
  • Suppression: (Enemies lose 1 Skill point on 4 or 5 Gem matches.)

Curse of Weakness (14 Red/Yellow)
Drain an enemy’s Mana. Deal [Magic + 3] true damage, boosted by Mana drained. [2:1]

Without Leader, Moloch and Khorvash are on nearly even footing in terms of attack, life, and armor, with Moloch having two more life and Khorvash having one more armor. As soon as you add Leader, however, Khorvash beats Moloch’s attack by 3 points, life by 1, and armor by 4. Not to mention his magic being a staggering 7 points higher.

For traits, I’m once again inclined to say that Khorvash has the upper hand here at least in his first two traits. (Leader and Stoneskin just work.) But. Fire link is definitely something good for Moloch, the quicker you can get your mana the better. I don’t think it makes up for the sheer difference in stats between the two, though.

Lion’s Wrath probably wins out against Suppression as well, but it might depend on what you’re up against and what kind of team you’re running with Moloch. But, Suppression isn’t stopped by impervious, so that’s a plus.

But, again. That’s not really what we’re comparing. In this case, we’re looking at Crown of Anu versus Curse of Weakness, and they’re much easier to compare than most other abilities.

By default (under these circumstances), Khorvash will deal 15 damage to the first two damage, stun them, and drain their mana. His mana to true damage ratio is still 1 to 2.143.

For Moloch, without draining mana, he’ll only deal 8 damage. Which puts Moloch at a ratio of 1 to .5, roughly. There’s a lot of room for variance there, but Moloch cannot hit for as much damage total as Khorvash (without buffs from other sources) simply due to the fact that Moloch would need to drain 44 mana total from an enemy to deal the 30 damage that Khorvash is doing. (Yes. Khorvash’s damage is spread between two targets, but the point still stands.) Moloch’s efficiency increases as the amount of mana he drains does, of course.

Moloch’s drain is a targeted drain, which is useful in itself, but I don’t think it’s comparable to the sheer damage (plus stun) of Khorvash’s ability.

TL;DR: Like Kurokazna said, Khorvash is straight up a better Moloch. By far. Like. Moloch really isn’t even in the same category as Khorvash, it feels like, even though they are both legendaries.

Helllooooo Power Creep!

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I like the analysis but I’d like to point out that when looking at Crimson Bat, you look at the AOE True Damage and barely ever at life gain. If you’re playing a double bat or a double Valk bat mercy comp, life gain isn’t a matter. The only time life gain/bloodsucking matters is when it’s a stalemate and that shouldn’t happen most of the time. Personally haven’t gone into a stalemate in a figurative forever.
Khorvash himself isn’t such a problem too, it’s just that he is well rounded as a legend in comparison(power creep). His traits are all very strong and his spell is useful for walls such as Gorgotha and Other Khorvash. He also stops big cost troops such as Maw very easily. On top of all that his mana cost is a tiny 14 which is pretty small for what the effect does. Very well rounded troop

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Do not be offended, i am taking a cheep shot at this thread. “wall of text” ok shot has been fired. Also khorvash is being treated sorta like maw before it was nerfed/buffed.

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It is a statistical analysis… What did you expect?

Would “Khorvash beats Moloch. Crimson Bat is inferior.” have been a better post?

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No, just wanted the cheap shot. I figured this thread would get filled with more walls of text.

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In terms of usefulness moloch can beat EK if you build a looping team. .
Suppression takes 4 skill points to whole team and at some point makes them utterly unable to take you down, plus Suppression won’t wear off like EK’s stun will.

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I’m also pretty much completely ignoring Khorvash’s stun and mana drain to two enemies.

The reason Bat was used as a comparison tool was purely for it’s damage. It also kind of highlights just how much value you get for a cast of Khorvash. I’m also trying not to talk about specific compositions and such either, because that’s well outside the realm of how much I’m interested in doing this. I was kind of trying to give Bat a little bit “more worth” rather than just calling Khorvash a better legendary in… well. Most aspects.

I agree that Suppression can be more useful than EK’s Stun. Like I said, depends on what you’re running and what you’re dealing with.

Personal opinion, and not factual at all: Using Moloch’s trait like that feels like it would just… take too long. I’d rather just roll through with Khorvash than take the time to make their team ineffective via chipping away at their skills (And hoping I hit what I want to).

And like I said above. I like Khorvash. He’s an incredibly well rounded legendary that provides a lot of utility, and I’d rather see other legendaries be buffed or legendaries created that are on his tier versus him getting nerfed. It’s more about just how much value you’re getting out of Khorvash versus other troops.

…And yep. More walls o’ text to come. Because… well. That’s what I’m doing with this thread. :sweat_smile: Sorry!

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While i agree with what you said, and even though i’m allegedlly on the “Khrovash abuser’s team” and on the “falacy business” as well :joy:
I must point out that a strong indice of how a troop is strong/unbalanced is when you need to use it against itself to have an upperhand in battle. We saw it on “Mawticore’s war”, so we must keep an open mind to it as well.

@Velkyn, you constructed some good analisys, and in time i’ll check it and comment properly. Sadly i’m at work and close to my lunch time… See you guys later.

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Don’t get me wrong - I love Khorvash, he’s my favorite troop in the game.

But let’s face it, his 3rd trait is one of the strongest in the game IMO. Stun is powerful in and of itself and handing it out like candy on match-4/5’s ends up nullifying the other team.

I don’t use EK on defense but on invades, the only things that are remotely troublesome are Plague and Death (if he should get a spell off) because of their de-buffs.

Honestly, I think they should make his spell do flat mana drain instead of 100%, like say 10-12. And then take away his True Damage. He’s still be PLENTY powerful if he just did normal damage.

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Pfft. I abuse Khorvash. Really, really hard. I had just finished traiting Gorgotha out about the time Khorvash came around. Poor Gorgotha just couldn’t fill that front slot nearly as well as EK does.

But. You do not need to use Khorvash to beat Khorvash. I have no intentions of calling Khorvash himself unbalanced. I’d much rather see other troops buffed and given more utility than EK be nerfed. Power creep is a thing, I’d like other troops to be able to keep up with it.

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I just linked this thread. Good to see that the link wasn’t needed. Vel here is much better at this type of thing than I am.

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Khorvvy-Chan versus Manticore… Fight!

This comparison will start with the same set of assumptions as the previous one, which amounts to both troops being mythic, traited, fully leveled, but with no other bonuses. Traits will be taken into account when it’s viable to do so.

Emperor Khorvash

  • Level 20 (Mythic)
  • Attack: 18 (21)
  • Life: 20 (23)
  • Armor: 25 (28)
  • Magic: 9 (12)

Traits

  • Leader (+3 to all stats if in first slot)
  • Stoneskin (50% less damage from skulls)
  • Lion’s Wrath (Stun on 4-5 gem matches)

Crown of Anu (14 Blue/Brown)
Deal (magic+3) true damage to the first 2 enemies. Stun them and drain their mana.

Manticore

  • Level 20 (Mythic)
  • Attack: 18
  • Life: 31 (33)
  • Armor: 8
  • Magic: 4

Traits

  • Monster Bond (Allied Monsters gain 2 Life)
  • Impervious (Immune to all Status Effects, Devour, and Mana Drain)
  • Empowered (Starts battle with full Mana)

Endless Song (9 Green/Yellow)
Stun an enemy and drain their mana by 7. Gain [Magic +1] Attack.

I dunno about anyone else, but I legitimately think comparing Manticore and Khorvash is going to be one of the best comparisons here. With them being released at the same time, you don’t run into the problems of comparing Khorvash to older legends, and Manticore starts as an UR, so you kind of expect it to fall a little behind a legend. (At least in my opinion.)

With Leader, Khorvash beats out Manticore in Attack, Armor, and Magic, but Manticore’s life is quite a bit higher, at 10 points higher if you’re counting Monster Bond as well (which we will). Khorvash’s advantage in Attack is quickly negligible, however, with Manticore’s ability. Pure stats wise, they’re just about as tanky as each other. Khorvash’s magic far outstrips Manticore’s, however. But, you’re not really using Manticore for it’s magic stat.

For traits. the main reason Khorvash ends up so much better in most stat categories than Manticore is purely because of Leader. Stoneskin also sets Khorvash up to have more survivability than Manticore (in many situations).

Monster Bond isn’t a huge deal, it’s potentially 8 HP split between your entire team (although unlikely), but it does give Manticore a little bit more survivability. Impervious, however, is a big deal. Not being able to be hit by status effects (Stun and Frozen being the big ones, in my opinion), Devour (Black Manacles and Maw), or Mana Burn (Mab.) makes a difference. Manticore is a counter for some troops, and isn’t a particularly easy troop to deal with thanks to Impervious (Like most other impervious troops).

Comparing Lion’s Wrath and Empowered sounds a little unfair, when you’re looking at a Legendary’s unique ability versus an UR’s third trait. But I think Empowered actually stands up fairly well against Lion’s Wrath, depending on team composition and expected match length. Obviously, Lion’s Wrath outstrips Empowered as you get later in the match, but early on, Empowered is a very powerful tool and allows Manticore to immediately buff himself, and potentially allows you to end a loop before it begins. However, Lion’s Wrath will see far more use in longer matches due to it proccing off 4-5 gem matches. (That ends up a matter of opinion.)

Now we get to Crown of Anu versus Endless Song.

Being that Manticore is easier to acquire (being an UR), one would kind of expect Endless Song to be a little bit “worse” than Crown. But Endless Song isn’t a weak ability by any stretch of the imagination.

For 9 mana, Manticore stuns an enemy, drains them of 7 mana, and gains [magic+1] attack. (At baseline here? +5 attack, bumping it up to 23 attack and surpassing Khorvash’s.) With Empowered, you can effectively wait for an enemy to get into position to start actually doing what they’re trying to accomplish with their team composition, and then swipe it right out from under them with a Manticore cast, even if the troop starting the entire thing is in third or fourth slot.

However. That’s completely overlooking Khorvash’s 30 true damage (split between two enemies, yes) per cast, as well as flat mana drain and stunning two enemies instead of just one. But. Khorvash costs 5 more mana, and isn’t targeted. He also is significantly more difficult to cast on turn one. (Empowered is a wonderful trait for a troop like Manticore to have.) Most likely, you would be able to cast Manticore far more often than Khorvash, which might make up for only hitting a single enemy. You get skull damage in compensation for true damage, I’m not sure that’s a “fair trade” until you’ve cast a couple times and are up at really high attack values on Manticore already, which render armor pretty much useless anyways.

But. Manticore, in my opinion, is a very nice comparison for a “scaled down” Khorvash, so to speak. It’s mana cost is appropriately less for about half of Khorvash’s ability, though the loss of straight true damage and a full mana drain is kind of painful. But, we’re also comparing an UR to a Legendary, and I feel like that makes a difference as well.

TL;DR: It really depends on what you want out of your troop and what you’re up against. Want tankiness and to flat out deny mana? Khorvash wins. Want the flexibility of stunning/draining whatever you want, with the bonus of more skull damage? Manticore. Manticore’s easier to get, too.

Manticore is extremely good for an UR. Khorvash is extremely good for a legendary.

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Manticore is toothless since the nerf. Honestly I don’t even worry about letting him get charged anymore. He can’t really hurt anybody now.

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Manticore has lost it’s teeth, but it still has utility.

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Untargetability can be an advantage, against stealthy troops.

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That’s also true. I’ll make sure to add that if/when I get to comparing all of the above (including Famine, and maybe another troop or two if I can find any others that fit the bill nicely).

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Maybe in an invade team. I still see him a lot on defend teams when I’m invading and it’s like slicing through butter…

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If you want to start really talking about defense, you have to address the fact that the defense AI sucks. You don’t want flexibility on defense, you want pure consistency. The fewer variables for the AI to mess up, the better.

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That’s exactly my point. Before, Manticore was consistently troublesome (while still beatable) on defense. Now he’s just another troop really. Before, you had to worry about him having Empowered + Mana Drain. Now it’s a minor inconvenience.

On defense, Khorvash is still a formidable opponent that you have to account for from the beginning of the match until he’s dead.