Request for Legendary Tier List

Not even Mana Generation + board control. Just flat out destruction.

Entangle reduces skull damage down to 0, but each Doomskull does 5 damage after reaching 0, so a full board of Doomskulls will still smash any target.

Its absurdly broken.

Ok, just an exercise:

What lower rarity is outperforming a Willow with its 3rd trait and boost ratio in AoE damage? (and mana generation from destroying)

What lower rarity is outperforming Starflower’s AoE + Boost ratio on damage + summon ability + 3rd trait?

What lower rarity is similar to Leviathan with AoE, dispel all, and troop displacement?

What lower rarity has Behemoth’s high life gain 3rd trait + AoE damage + Mana Generation

The Widow Queen is technically strong, but I hate sacrificing allies under normal circumstances.

Gog and Gud can do good things as well in the right supported team.

Which lower rarity are we giving the nod to? The only one I actually like nowadays is Water Elemental.

3 Likes

You guys make some good points.

  • Looking at it again, I’ll agree with you both in that Starflower should be C-tier, maybe even higher. Her individual abilities don’t jump out at you, but put them together and you have a useful troop, at least at low levels (that x5 boost ratio could make for an interesting all-Fey team). If her 3rd trait was good, she would be a lock for B-tier.

  • Lust you’re going to have to cast at least 2x to have a decent chance of transform, and that’s a lot for a turn-ender with no other significant benefits. Maybe it ends up working out. If you’re saying Lust-centric teams work out at a high level, I’ll move it up to B. It just sounds pretty risky overall, for a good/not great reward.

  • If we are basing the type-boosters on the strength of the troops of their type, how does this sound?

A-Tier
King Avelorn

B-Tier
Hyndla
King Silenus (could be A-tier, for his synergy the Wild Queen)
St. Astra

C-Tier
Urskula

@TheIdleOne I think my D-tier descriptor (“D: Do not invest in these, your lower-rarity troops are better”) still has to be taken in context of normal gameplay - we can’t pretend all the better Legendaries/Mythics don’t exist. In a world without them, yeah, some of the D-tiers might have use, but that’s not what I’m saying.

What I’m basically saying is: don’t invest in these, because they aren’t significantly better than your lower-rarity options, and are not worth any of the resources that could be spent on better troops. This is why citing 3rd traits and such doesn’t make sense here - that’s a ton of resources for early-game players, and mid and later game players will have better options to spend those resources on. Kind of the same story with AoE damage in general - it’s not great early in the game, and later in the game you’ll have better options available than the D-tiers.

(The resource-sink part of that kind of holds true for C-tier Legendaries too; but the C-tiers provide enough benefit to spend some [not a ton] of resources on for early-game players.)

On the specific examples you cited (because it’s worth discussing D-tier troops too!):

Starflower - you right, see above

Leviathan - like Starflower, this is a frankentroop, except its mash of abilities is significantly more uninspiring than Starflower; this is probably the textbook example of “not good enough early/better options late” troop I was discussing above

Willow - there are a lot of row/column destroyers and exploders in the lower rarities, why invest in a Legendary that’s barely better than those?

Behemoth - I can see the argument for C-tier, the main concern is its spell’s random removal aspect giving the opponent a good board, that’s why I have it in D; it would for sure be a C if it didn’t have that downside

Widow Queen - I could actually easily see it in C, just thought that the ally sacrifice aspect was enough of a negative to move it down. That gameplan doesn’t seem very good even at lower levels, but we can move it to C if you think it belongs there

Gog and Gud - When I started my list I was totally going to put it in C, but that 17 mana cost is just too high to be stuck with such a major rng swing. The single-target damage of the “good outcome” is actually really good, especially if you build a supporting team; it’s just that downside of the “bad outcome” plus the mana cost really makes it too unreliable.

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Its a row destroyer (8 mana generation) with an easy to fulfill boost ratio (3x per Brown Gem, meaning 9 AoE from a mere 3 Brown gems before actual magic) that can easily start with 50% mana with Forest Guardian while having an actual 3rd trait of 2 attack and 2 life to itself and its supported archetype on 4/5 match which is really relevant early game when you have only 20/30 life and a handful of attack damage.

If people used to run Boar Rider and that removes a row, destroying the row is a better version of the effect.

Willow would be one of my top troops for a low level player. (Anything with a Boost ratio ranks higher up) and mid 30s AoE damage is not bad in late game. If I had to run an AoE team, its pretty high up there.

Mountain Crusher with a Dust Storm + Willow would be a setup for an easy 15+ AoE before Magic damage application many times.

I like Willow way more than Garuda and that’s a C Tier somehow.

I like Willow way more than King Mikail (because explode a row is hard to combo off of sometimes and Willow has an easier boost ratio to maintain) and that’s a C Tier somehow (and 17 mana)

In fact, I think I like Willow more than almost all of your C Tier.

2 Likes

Willow also has Nimble. It’s maybe worth one turn ahead on most decks as a result with warden hero. You can ignore and fill; and as mentioned the destroy gives full value for gems taken.

Works pretty well with Qilin for stat gains too.

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I’m just saying, you guys are really making arguments for Willow being B-tier, not C-tier, when you cite synergies with Legendaries (fully-traited Forest Guardian, Qilin) and affixed weapons that likely won’t be available in the early game.

That said, I’ll admit that Willow’s AoE damage is pretty good, better than most of the D-tier options, with a side of mana generation. As such, you’ve persuaded me to move Willow to C-Tier.

However, without even accounting for exploders, look at Lapina Explorer, Lion Prince, Rock Spirit, Griff Stonefeather, and Zephyros for similar roles to Willow early-game, not to mention many other row/column destroyers with interesting board control/team-empowering effects.

Also:

  • I have no problem moving Garuda down to D, the differences between it and Leviathan are actually kind of trivial (unless we get some better Stryx troops). I do think King Mikhail is stronger than Willow, but not enough to say they belong in different tiers.

  • Boar Rider gets the Goblin extra turn, which I’m guessing fueled its use back in the day, not the row removal.

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It was all the board manipulation.

Your tier list is a general tier list right? So not everything needs to apply to early game players. Some can be applied to mid-game and late-game players.

That being said, Mountain Crusher is an easy to obtain weapon and Legendary ingots are sold in Raid and Invasion shop tiers (for those that are interested). Not that hard to obtain.

Orb of Wisdom are also mostly common from many event types and can be found in Flash offers.

Lapina Explorer: Valid troop, but does less than half of the damage Willow does
Lion Prince: Also does less than half of the damage Willow does
Griff Stonefeather: That split damage is terrible and column generation is extremely difficult to board manipulate.
Rock Spirit: Split damage, but at least it has a decent boost ratio. Arena star, but eventually doesn’t scale well.
Zephyros: Actually does respectable damage because of the boost ratio but its split damage though, so it doesn’t always result in great damage output.

They’re good troops, but Willow outperforms them by a good margin.

I generally agree with your list and I’m not personally invested in the tier list. I just don’t think Willow is a bad troop/I think its underrated.

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I think we need to open up a new tier (the mythic list I saw has 5). Willow isn’t that good…C tier yes not B. The damage output is too low.

Hyndla is better than Avelorn. Because of the 3rd trait granting magic (can get out of hand in a long battle or with looping) Prefer Avelorn B and Hyndla A.

Might have neglected doomskulls overcoming entangle (and to some extent skull reduction). Although I don’t like the risk of killing myself.

Gorgotha isn’t the best troop but it has the highest skull reduction (w/o the mana block of a mythic). I’m phasing it out once I fix Sentinel and Titan. But having it makes my battles brainless because I only need to fill it up. Then I can loop between it and Infernus (sometimes Infernus automatically fills itself)

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Around +/- 34 AoE damage end-game depending on how many brown gems is too low? How much more than that do you want? Still does more damage than Fallen Valdis.

Compared to many of the troops on his B list, Willow does way more damage output than them.

There shouldn’t be a risk provided you’re casting when not frozen and you have alignment. Entangle > Skull reduction. Doomskulls overcomes both. So say if I’m only doing 5 damage to Stonehammer. Add 5 Doomskull damage to that. Then add a full board of Doomskulls. What’s Stonehammer supposed to do to that?

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Compared to Kyrstenax and Mab it is quite a few damage short. And Krystenax and Mab has more useful 3rd traits.

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Krystenax is 25 damage + 2:1 boost ratio. So with 12 colored gems removed, that’s still only 31 damage.

Willow is 25 damage + 3 damage for every 1 brown gem removed. Not hard at all for Willow to do more damage than Krystenax. Example: 3 brown gems = 34 damage.

Queen Mab does 21 damage + enemy mana gained + Arcane. Queen Mab is better than Willow, but also has enemy traits that can ignore her spell damage (Immune to Mana Burn). Under some circumstances, Willow still does more damage.

They’re all quite comparable.

Queen Mab has one of the best traits in the game. (and I dont think she’s a B rank troop).

Krystenax’s self-enchant is nice, but too slow to rely on as a game winner. I’d rather have Willow’s 3rd trait in a Beast team. 10 4/5 matches and its hard to scoff off an extra 20 attack and 20 life to an entire team (or even just 3 troops). Some Forest Guardian casts and clean up, some Giant Spider casts, Moon Rabbit on a good day, Queen Aurora, Qilin, Snow Panther, Umberwolf loops…

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After a week of discussion and your useful input, here’s what I’m currently thinking on the tiers. Thanks for your clarifications, and as usual, let me know what you think!

EDIT: See this post for the latest version of the list.

Tiers:
S: Invest at will, these troops complement mythic troops well and can be included in your best teams to the end
A: Good investments, overall not as strong as the S-tier, but still excellent pulls with utility even for endgame players
B: OK investments, these are good troops can build your team around these deep into the game, but will see significantly less use over time
C: Early-game only, you may need to invest in these for guild wars or other events, but limit what you put in, because these troops will become obsolete
D: Do not invest in these, your lower-rarity troops are better

S-Tier:

Divinia
Divine Ishbaala
Emperor Khorvash
Glaycion
Keeper of Souls
King Bloodhammer
Queen Titania
The Dragon Soul
Yao Guai

A-Tier:

Emperor Liang
Forest Guardian
Glitterclaw
Infernal King
Jarl Firemantle
King Avelorn
King Highforge
Magnus
Nimue
Qilin
Queen Mab
Sekhma
Sylvanimora
Tesla
Umberwolf
Wrath

B-Tier:

Borealis
Crimson Bat
Gorgotha
Holy St. Astra
Hyndla Frostcrown
King Silenus
Kraken
Krystenax
Moloch
Queen Grapplepot
Queen Ysabelle
Taloca
Urskula
Webspinner
Winter Imp

C-Tier:

Artema
Bone Dragon
Carnex
Dracos 1337
Frostfeather
Gar’Nok
Goblin King
Imp of Love
Kerberos
King Mikhail
Lust
Medea
Orion
Psion
Scylla
Sheggra
Sol’Zara
Starflower
The Great Maw
Tinseltail
Willow

D-Tier:

Abhorath
Autumnal Imp
Behemoth
Bunni’Nog
Celestasia
Chief Stronghorn
Dark Monolith
Garuda
Gloom Leaf
Gog and Gud
Hydra
Kruarg the Dread
Leviathan
Saguaro
Shadow Dragon
Spooky Imp
Spring Imp
Summer Imp
The Silent One
The Widow Queen
Venoxia
Viper

3 Likes

Great effort and thanks for the list.

My opinion comes in unbiased but ordained with facts. (I can send my collection list and s/s my team and win/loss ratio for this week).

Willow is a troop I never used once in PvP before about 10 days ago. I have no affinity with it, no prior thoughts other than it was probably average.

I was completely wrong.

You used King Avelorn as an example of A tier by mentioning it as a component of a successful team.

Your C tier mentions primarily early game only.

Of my last 443 battles all T3 I have lost 6 using Willow in a team (about half last week without the bonus and 1 loss). 3 losses came yesterday when I was playing tired/distracted. 0 losses to Life and Death btw.

I had never used the troop before in Pvp. I probably thought it was as good as you prior.

I can’t agree with it becoming obselete. I’m going to be using it in other ways, immunity to entangle alone is worth a free go with all the archers/sunspears and the like being faced. Saves me using an empowered for example.

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Thanks!

I get what you’re saying, but being in C-tier doesn’t mean a troop is unusable, even at a high level.

What separates the B-tiers from the C-tiers is either having an unique end-game niche (like Hyndla, on Giant teams) or having overall strength that is significantly above the C-tiers (like Krystenax).

As of now, I just don’t see how Willow fits either of those qualifications. I don’t think you can build a strong end-game team with just Beasts (the best Beast-type troops are themselves support for damage-dealers, and Willow doesn’t boost magic), and I don’t think Willow’s AoE damage+traits do enough to distinguish from the other C-tier troops. Happy to hear arguments to the contrary though.

That being said, I do feel the B-tier is the “squishiest” of those on the list - outside of a handful of “hard Bs” I could see a number of them in C and vice-versa.

@iudicium On Hyndla vs Avelorn…that’s a specialist vs generalist argument, and I think being tied to Giants holds Hyndla back a bit. Avelorn by contrast gives a fast start to both Weaver and Yao Guai, and its spell does more damage, with tremendous versatility. I could maybe see Hyndla in A as well (if there was a strong Giant Mythic, it wouldn’t even be debatable), but it’s hard for me to put Hyndla ahead of Avelorn.

Also, your description I think justifies Gorgotha in B; granite skin is good, but Gorgotha is being phased out at the higher levels, especially with lower-rarity troops getting basically the same spell effect.

I can not disagree more with Krystenax. I am level 1300+ and I have every troop in the game except Zuul’Goth and still use him quite often. Krystenax can remove a colour from the board which helps a lot any level whenever a converter or troll is about to fill something dangerous, summons even though pretty weak still protect the rest of the team from skull damage, enchants on purples so almost always getting mana, has stoneskin so it can sit up top and take skull damage while you get other troops up and does a decent amount of damage to the entire enemy team.

Maw is a bit low as well. Maw/Mercy/Infernal King/Sheggra is still a good team.

Forest Guardian I would put at S tier for it’s third trait alone. Sword of Heroes/Forest Guardian/Sunbird/Fire Bomb is a really good explore and casual PvP team.

Sylvanimora is a decent troop but the main thing he has going for him is the entangle and that can be done with other troops and hero classes.

2 Likes

Well numbers don’t lie at T3 PvP.

I eventually went 350-9 with a Beast team last week. I’m 127-4 this week so far. I’ve now used Willow 729 times, and that is 14 losses… I’m level 1417 and have over 50k PVP wins, so know top end PvP.

Willow
Doomed Xbow - Warden Class
Qilin
Forest Guardian

Qilin gives you Hyndla, but raises you dual converting. Willow gives you attack/life, so you get attack/life/magic on 4/5 gem matches with Qilin/Willow.

So you have available to you;

Nimble - immunity to entangle
Gain attack/life on 4/5 gem matches
Barkskin
Destroy row - full mana gained per gem destroyed - ideal for loading the board for converters as you can target nicely
Average mana damage 30 minimum normally to all enemies, plus any skulls/doomskulls to top troop

Doomed Xbow
Magic Damage + Doomskulls
Fed by matching Red or Qilin giving red - align to blue, an unused colour usually can be set to align
and all the Xbow bonuses, drain, gain, red storm etc

Qilin

Magic gain on 4/5 gems (note 3 skull converters in team, usually gaining significant magic each time you have a turn)
Bless 2 random allies nice for death marks
Convert purple to red (great for L&D)
Perfect to refill Xbow
Yellow storm to accelerate yellow

Forest Guardian
Convert colours and also purple to skulls
50% mana start to all beasts
Barrier to all beasts when casts

Warden
Hunters Mark
Root Trap
Green storm if you want it or Razor Armour/Backup
Saviour
Banishment (works great vs Dawnbringer/Frostmage/L&D teams)
100 talent is naff, unless you want a mech or rogue in team.

I may have missed something else that help.

Warden hero traits aren’t great, if it had Tidecaller but explode green gem, instead of 5 armour it would be cool.

0 losses to any L&D team, although might jinx that now!

Only time I struggle is if frozen really, but Qilin usually shifts that.

That’s a solid beast team that rips at top end PVP.

4 Likes

@Maxx I can see an argument for Krystenax in A-tier; it does arguably the most AoE damage of anything in B-Tier, and the side benefits you mention are useful. Its only problem is somewhat being made obsolete as a damage-dealer by Mythics, many of whom do even more damage, with better traits and/or side benefits.

What other niches does Krystenax fill besides being useful on all-Dragon teams? Consuming blue mana helps, but it competes for that role with a host of strong mythics, as well as Mab, Khorvash, Avelorn, and Tesla. Krystenax is clearly too good to be lower than B, but without a clear role on endgame teams I have a hard time moving it up to A.

I’m a little surprised I’m not seeing more use of The Great Maw myself, given how strong devour is on delves and such. If I had to guess, it’s that 24 mana cost holding it back? I can move it up to B if you think it belongs there though.

My understanding was that Sylvanimora is still a part of some key delving teams, which is what justified it being in A-tier to me at the time I made the first list. If that isn’t the case anymore (or you think it’s been rendered mostly obsolete by the Alderfather, a flat-out better troop), we can move it down to B.

Great and informative post highlighting the synergies of beast teams. If nothing else, it shows how strong those double converters are together. You guys made good points in support of moving Forest Guardian up to S, and given how green mana teams are in general on the rise (thanks to the Wild Queen and Yasmine’s Chosen), I’m coming around.

So what does Willow bring to the team? Strong first-slot traits, team boosting, and usable AoE damage. With your team configuration, you aren’t often going to take advantage of Willow’s boost ratio, but having Qilin (arguably an S-tier in its own right) in tow takes the sting out of that.

Are there any other troops that may better fill Willow’s role? It’s not easy for me to see any. Wulfgarok would be strong on this team, but can’t be placed up front due to mana blocking issues. You also have your usual leader troops or the hero, but those won’t capitalize on the beast synergies as well.

You’ve convinced me. Especially on a list where Borealis and Gorgotha are in B-tier, Willow should be B-tier as well. (Though you could say that they all belong in C, I’m not ready to go there just yet.)

1 Like

You forgot mana generation from his spell. Also, what counts as “usable AoE damage” and “good AoE damage”? Up to a bonus of 18 extra AoE damage while webbed is rather impressive to me, but hey, maybe I have very low standards.

I mean, there’s some players out there that though 5% chance to summon a Harpy each turn was a much better solution to stem the problem of summoning than a 25 chance to summon a Harpy on 4/5 gem match. What do I know?

2 Likes

Keep in mind, my comments were strictly in the context of the team xolid brought up. In that context, where you’re starting with a light storm and looping Qilin eats all the brown gems, Willow’s boost ratio is unlikely to be much a factor (hence the downgrade from “good” to “usable/ok” damage).

I think that’s one of the nice things about Willow. Willow is a very flexible troop that doesn’t have to be used strictly for damage. It can use its spell to secure a 4/5 match, mana generation for another troop that’s close to filling, or even popping a row with a few too many doomskulls for 15 for 3 doomskulls/ 20 dmg for 4 doomskulls to the first enemy troop.

With the way his team is structured, there’s a good chance Willow can be filled before Qilin which then can use Willow to fill Qilin or just get the ball rolling for damage output. Player’s choice

2 Likes

I’ve only been playing a few months, but have found great synergy with the following team

King Silenus
Luna
The Wild Queen
Hero (Bard Class fully traited) with +9 Dancing Daggers

The Wild Queen is my only mythic, so I don’t have experience with many other highly tiered troops.

Bardic Inspiration and running 4 wildfolk certainly helps, but I would put King Silenus in the A Tier.

1 Like