In the steam guide, I wouldn’t focus as much on the exact teams as I would the descriptions of the roles your troops have, and how they’re being used. For example, Bloodhammer being often linked with doomskull-generating options (especially doomed weapons and Glaycion), Titania (and Tinseltail) being used with other spell-casters to take advantage of faerie fire, Khorvash/Krystenax being used as spell-casters on blue-centric teams, etc.
PS: I actually disagree with some of his low-tier mythic rankings, specifically Euryali, Queen of Sin, and Wulfgarok. You wouldn’t be too bad off if you pull any of those. Happy hunting!
I’m about ready to update my list for 4.6.5, thought I’d see what you guys thought about one more group of legendaries:
Frostfeather (B or C): I had Frostfeather at a hard B before 4.6, but it may be a casualty of the Cedric Medal. Turn-enders who inflict curse (without also stunning) were nerfed by the auto-cleansing medals, and Frostfeather already had to deal with the setup cost of having an icestorm for its curse-all to trigger. It does good damage still, but with its curse not being as sticky as it was before, might drop down to C.
Lust (A or B): As one of the most annoying defense troops in the game, Lust is pretty safe in B. I’m thinking it could move up if any of the theoretical uses for it on offense (e.g., with Vash on a sacrifice team) have actually panned out for anybody.
Jarl Firemantle (B or C): We know by now Jarl isn’t great by himself, but can be usable on giant teams with Hyndla and Fire Giant. With Hyndla getting nerfed a bit (Warmaster? really? plus the nerf to freeze via Cedrics) in the long run, I’m wondering if this team is still viable, or if all the other options we now have render it obsolete.
Wrath (S or A): Wrath has a lot of benefits and doesn’t color block as badly as some of the other double converters. His biggest weakness is that he needs to be a front troop to benefit from his third trait explosions, and is a bit frail for that role. Is that enough to keep him in A-tier?
Sylvanimora (B or C): With its third trait, Sylvanimora used to be a staple for delving. Now that we have an abundance of options for inflicting entangle, it’s taken a back seat there, and it’s weaknesses come more to the forefront. Its spell has a high 17-mana cost, doesn’t generate much mana, or do much damage. Its third trait really dictates whether or not it deserves to stay in B-tier IMO.
It’s too bad, another casualty of the exploder nerf. Sylva. was a midgame beast for me back in the day. I played thousands of PVP matches with Sylva/TDS/Krystenax and [anything, usually random weekly bonus troop to just sit there and never cast, since it was before talents and champion XP]. After the first TDS cast to get going all 3 could reliably self-fill
I don’t really use Sylv at all any more now so I guess I agree, there are definitely better delve etc. options at end game status
But in mid game I have to think the 3rd trait could be even more important now that it can be paired with hero talents—there are other passive “random” entangle Traits, but pretty sure Sylva is the only one who targets the first slot. So it is still a completely unique legendary trait. Any hero class with Root Trap, the trait will just keep reliably refreshing on the top spot forever
For punching up in PVP, that’s still very helpful id think. Especially with so many empowered webspinner skull teams around. Also I think first trait is reasonably useful too, chance to summon a dragonette on death, and I personally think dragonette is generally one of the best Rares in the game. Then again I guess with EoE and half-mana start heroes it’s not as much of a novelty anymore to be able to inflict multiple status effects after a single gem match
TL;DR I guess I have no idea what the midgame is actually like anymore? It’s a completely different game than I played at that time.
I guess EoE can do everything Sylva does and better for “punching up,” except you do have to cast it. So if you want to use a different hero weapon, maybe Sylva still has a niche. And there’s no Frog upgrade on the dragons
Re: Wrath frailty, see Sylvanimora post above Entangle ftw? I tend to only use wrath in solid looping teams where I don’t expect to ever drop the turn, for this reason. Probably my least favorite skull converter but at least Enrage-all allies means your 2nd (or 3rd!) can still get a good shot if it all goes sideways
EDIT: I forgot about doomskulls in both these posts. Entangle just really isn’t what it used to be.
Thanks for the Sylvanimora breakdown. All that would tend to add up to a C in my book. Bs tend to have some niche endgame use still, unlike the Cs, which are fine for midgame, but pretty much unused in the endgame.
First of all, she was never “nerfed” . She just has a role that you may not care for, but her stats remain the same. At the rate Anu tokens drop, she wouldn’t have seen any upgrades at all by anyone at any point.
Second of all, Warmaster is actually good for Hyndla since the more life she has, the longer she can stay alive, the more chances she can to provide her own magic boost. A mage only gains “6 magic” and no extra stats and that’s only 3 4/5 matches for her to obtain.
Thanks all for the troop evaluations. So many times I unlock a troop, traiit and level it, and then never look at it again. I’ll definitely have to give Willow a second look.
And since I’m taking something away, I thought I’d leave something as well. Gob King deserves better than a C. He doesn’t stun like Dwarf summoner, or start Dwarves at 50% mana, but he’s still a Goblin. Need to shift stones so Glacyon or Bloodhammer can get a 4 match? Done. Need a buffer troop, who might be worthless? Maybe you get lucky and get da Rocket. Bonus.
Orcses is da best, but Gobbos is good too. gl hf
Thanks again for the Willow tip. I wasn’t a fan of the movie; maybe I let that cloud my judgement. Unrelated, I know. But name association. Kinda like if I see a troop uses Blue mana, I instinctively don’t like it…
The rebalance from elite levels technically hasn’t happened yet, but its foreseeable that both allies and opposing troops will have max elite levels. Not too reachy.
As for whether or not warmaster is a nerf, I guess that’s debatable? Having to do 3 more 4/5 matches to kill is a significant difference, but you can argue that getting 12 durability to offset an opponent’s +6 magic is a win. Particularly since she’s a summoner, survivability matters more, since it buys you time to make a comeback.
I would still tend to favor killing faster over being able to survive though. I can foresee situations where a Hyndla cast falls just short of killing a full-mana opponent (as her average damage falls significantly short of many of the better legendaries with elite levels factored in). This will force a player to choose between casting to end a turn (and hoping the freeze sticks) or waiting and hoping to survive the opponent’s turn.
In a Giants team, Hyndla was never the one actually killing anything. She stalls them with freeze/resummons holes/ and makes the other Giants into bigger killers. In the end, her damage output isn’t that important compared to say Jotnar or Fire Giant.
Not everyone is needed for their damage.
I prefer survivability over kill speed in real games of Gems of War, most notably in places like delves. I factor in kill speed for the sole purpose of keeping my team alive long enough to win the match. Well, faster matches don’t hurt either.
Even if Hyndla isn’t the main threat on the giants team, her damage being worse does hurt that team somewhat. Pre-elite level, her damage is actually pretty good, and I used her to chip away at the other team’s health and get late kills effectively. In fact, paired with titan class hero, she was an option I always kept in mind when I needed a blue mana user on a team. Between freeze getting worse and her damage getting worse, it’s hard not to feel like the giants team has lost a little steam, and that she won’t have any utility outside of that team anymore once the elite levels become more prevalent.
On kill speed vs survivability, are the giant teams much of a factor on scaling content? I can’t say I’d heard of that. I thought they were more of a non-scaling team, where speed tends to matter more (especially in pvp; not so much in pve stuff though).
I think you may be right actually. When I first made the list, I’d written the Goblin King off, as his life gain is insignificant, and his traits aren’t much help. But since then, goblins have gotten stronger (Cedric Medal, strong new Goblin troops), and doomskull teams, heavily dependent on getting proper alignments, have become more prevalent. As such, I’m thinking Goblin King may actually be a bit more worth using. I’ll move him up to B on the next list.
I couldn’t even find the latest version of the list in this thread, so I figure now’s as good as any time to release my current 4.6.5 tier list. Note that I am accounting for elite levels here - that will help some of the placements make more sense.
S: You can base a team around these troops through the endgame.
A: Niche+; these are more limited than the S-tiers, but a bit more versatile/stronger than the Bs.
B: These either are restricted to specific teams or modes in the endgame, or are just too good to be lumped in with the C-tier troops.
C: These are ok troops whose flaws can be overlooked until the midgame. You might still use some of these for events.
D: Flawed troops that you shouldn’t bother trying to make work.
Holy St Astra
Keeper of Souls
Imp of Love
The Dragon Soul
The Great Maw
The Widow Queen
Gog and Gud
Gruz the Undefeated
Kruarg the Dread
The Silent One
As always, thanks for the feedback, it has improved the list tons.
Was going to update the list, but not much has changed really since December. The new guild guardians were good for several legendaries, most notably Sekhma and Taloca. But I don’t think they were improved enough to change their tier standing; that said, I’m open to arguments to the contrary.
We also received Krampus and Captain Macaw. I would start them both off in C, as they are both gimmicky instakill troops (albeit better than the last one we received, Dullahan). Krampus is one of the more reliable instakill options, with a 2/3 chance of a good outcome, but its risky to cast him on damaged troops, as you could replace them with a full-health demon.
The newly-announced Darkstone Mythic could change the equation for Captain Macaw; she is rogue-type and looking really strong. Even though Macaw’s tools don’t complement her at all, 50% start alone would make Macaw instantly relevent, even if his spell never gets cast.
There’s talk in another thread of legendaries that need buffs, and I wanted to weigh in/raise the question here:
Gloom Leaf seems to be surprisingly popular. I have a hard time seeing a use for it on offense, do people find it useful for defenses? The lack of skull reduction makes it fail at its primary objective (first-slot troop), though the impervious+thorns trait combo make it likely that it’ll take down whatever kills it. The spell just isn’t very good; stealing a skull’s worth or so of armor and 16 attack at best for 16 mana. If it stole enough attack to actually hurt the enemy’s team, it might be more interesting, but I’m not seeing it as a useful troop in its current incarnation.
Psion was formerly great, but has similar problems to Gloom Leaf - it can’t function as front troop well in the modern game, making the third trait useless. Its damage is terrible too. The mana-draining aspect of its spell could give it a niche, but we have so many other mana drainers now that I’m not seeing it. Open to persuasion on this one though.
Garuda and Viper do have bad traits (particularly Garuda), but their spells are much better than the D-tier troops, and the new guild guardians can be used to even further boost their damage.
I would love to see all old troops that used to be great (like Gloom Leaf and Psion) get a rework so that they’re really good choices again. I think the main thing that makes troops obsolete over time is troops that have a capped, “hardcode” number—Gloom Leaf’s Attack stealing being just plain 4, rather than 4% (or something else that would scale), because just plain old 4 nowadays is nothing compared to the pretty significant something it used to be.
And not that I mean to derail the thread, but the percentages-thing had me thinking it could be a partial delve-troop fix, too, since people lately have really been on about delve complaints; a stat gain of 9 life for Deep Vitality is basically nothing. “9% of my life hoard-stat” added in addidtion is—suddenly—something to be pleased about, and it doesn’t even have the adverse effect of ruining PVP or any other game mode (or making the defender harder) because it’s limited to helping the player only in true-faction runs, basically.
Just some stray thoughts. Hope they’re not intrusive—I do enjoy the tier list debates, and like to chime in from time to time to say as much
I agree that Gloom Leaf could most assuredly use a rework. Psion has definitely seen better days as well but can still be somewhat functional. It’s squishiness makes use of it’s Legendary trait risky but a lot of teams are using front line troops with no skull damage mitigation these days. The classic use of the tank (e.g. Gorgotha) up front has been significantly diminished with the host of empowered converters and Doomskull spammers. Psion’s Magic Link is solid and Alert is not terrible. There are a fair amount of mana drain resistant troops now but not to the point that it makes Psion unusable. It is no longer great but it is better than many of the other D tier troops listed.
I also agree that Garuda’s spell is pretty good but his traits are horrible. They are so bad that it totally diminishes his usefulness. Viper’s spell is OK - if not for the charm aspect, it would be dreadful. However, her traits are pretty bad. Arcane is nice but her spell only strikes a single opponent so even a ton of looping won’t boost her damage too much. Her last trait is laughable compared to other Legendary traits.
You are correct that the new guild guardians can help both of these troops but I was trying to look at them in a vacuum when trying to ascertain their overall usefulness. If you look at some of the D tier Legendary troops outside of a vacuum, I think some of them would climb the ratings a bit. For example, on a gold spamming team, the subpar Gog and Gud can be a real force.
The one troop that is currently D listed that I question is Behemoth. It is nothing to get overly excited about but it’s spell does some AoE damage (roughly equal to Garuda’s) and it generates some mana as well. It is Impervious which is always a good thing and can rack up some major life boosts on a looping team. Not a great troop by any stretch of the imagination but could perhaps be ranked a little higher.
Cripes! Wanted to put something in here for Sir Quentin, and realized that I left you hanging for 3 weeks, my bad.
Generally this is true, but I feel like front troops who aren’t the hero and don’t have skull reduction are still mostly niche cases, exceptions to the general rule. I just don’t see a niche for using Psion up front in modern teams, especially since there’s no way to resummon him if he dies, and he mana blocks Reflection of Good. Plus, if you’re going to go to the trouble of using RoG, why not use it for a front troop with some real offense, rather than just stalling the match with mana draining?
One possible fringe pairing for Psion that could be ok is with Queen of Sin. His stalling could buy the team time to get going, at which point you could replace Psion with Wrath or Lust. I don’t think that kind of team would work as well as just running Wrath out there in the first place, but it might be worth a try.
That makes sense, but I’d argue that the only ranking that really matters is one that considers the optimal teams the troop can be used for. Otherwise, a troop like Webspinner would be considered kind of crappy, but having a fully traited and leveled one is essential if you ever want to use Arachnaean Weaver.
(Maybe Gog and Gud should be moved up? Even though he’d be completely mana-blocked on the standard gold team, on attack, that third trait is arguably better than having Greed on your team.)
I’ve thought about moving up - it’s kind of fast, and boostable via dervish class. I have it in D though because that destroying 12 gems is pretty terrible - you can randomly give the opponent a really good board if you are unlucky. Like weapon affixes that do gem creation/destruction, I can’t see myself using Behemoth because of this bad random factor.
PS: I’m provisionally putting Sir Quentin Hadley in A-tier. He’s a very strong troop that can work in a lot of different skull-based teams, but doesn’t seem to bring quite as much to a team as the S-tier dual converters.