Information about bans

Maybe some did, but not all; and remember the vast majority of players don’t read the forums, watch the YouTubers etc and were probably unaware of the whole thing, unless their GM clued them in.

For myself, my actions were: immediately stopped using Kris Kringle; otherwise kept playing as normal, albeit somewhat nervously; advised my guildmates to do the same.

That said: we’re a casual guild and ended up not having any members banned, so we didn’t suffer any of the secondary effects of having high contributors out of play due to the bans.

No, that’s ridiculous; the impact on banned players was far greater.

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To bend back into legal parlance, and what court procedure might dictate if prosecuted in that forum? (In the United States, where I am.)

A big problem with this idea is the concept of “provable damages”. If you want to suggest that a player banned for three days should receive 72 tributes, how are you going to prove that’s what was lost? How are you planning to prove that somebody would have logged in once per hour to collect that; I’m sure there are some people who do, or who have an arrangement where somebody near them logs in while they’re asleep, at work, and so on. But that’s probably a very small group of people.

Second? What about mitigation? A lot of the complaints I’m reading in these spaces are people “who stopped playing because they were afraid of a ban”. I understand the fear, but why should the developers be on the hook for a player changing his behavior, especially when that player very easily could have logged in to collect tribute and then signed off without playing? If a player stayed away from the game altogether out of this fear, that’s a “them” thing and not a “developer” thing. That’s a player making a conscious decision to behave in a certain way and compounding his/her losses.

And on the broader talk of compensation? I sincerely wish that people asking for ginormous amounts of compensation – not the post I’m directly responding to by the way – would stop and think for a moment. If your position is that the developers ought to award that much compensation, and maybe to bend over and invite you to spank them to boot, isn’t there a very real risk that the developers could decide it’s cheaper (and maybe easier) to give nothing and risk those players walking away? As opposed to having to give them so much free stuff that they’d lose as much (or more) that way?

To use a real world example: If you have a problem at a restaurant, they comp your meal. Maybe they give you some consideration beyond that, whether it’s a free extra or three that you didn’t order or a limited discount on future patronage. But they don’t go too much further than that. Because they’re still a business, and there’s still a line beyond which they won’t tread on account that the benefits to them are out-weighed by the cost of “doing nothing”.

We don’t have to like it, and there are many complaints in these spaces about the increasing monetization of the game and the seeming “greed” of the developers for ever increasing amounts of contribution. But we also ought to remember that this is their business, that they provide an of service without requiring any up front payment (or even any payment at all). But they have very real expenses when it comes to creating and maintaining the game and the economic model they’re using doesn’t guarantee that they’ll ever meet that. They undoubtedly do, given the longevity of the game as opposed to the mobile clones that appear and disappear like twinkling Christmas Tree lights.

But if you make it impossible for that side to stay in a tenable position, they could just pull up stakes and walk off into the sunset. Which leaves the complaining player no better off than he is now and perhaps worse, depending on how much of an attachment s/he has to this game and the value s/he receives from it.

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I do not know of a game that gives players literally everything they could have possibly earned with maximum optimization for server downtime, false bans, game-breaking bugs, etc. While I understand the sentiment of players who claim to play most/all day and want every potential resource they could have gained given to them, it is not reasonable to expect a company to go through and calculate how much a player theoretically could have earned given their average play time and average battle speed for every single banned player or player who didn’t play for fear of being banned, let alone every player in the game. That’s simply never going to happen, and I don’t think anyone can name a single free mobile game which has done that (specifically going through and giving every player the maximum amount of a variety of different resources that they could possibly have earned based on individual statistics and rates).

Most games will offer, as people have mentioned above, the 'generalist" resource, in this case gems, however generously they see fit. We can argue how many gems should be given all day - that’s fine, although ultimately it is up to the devs, and tens of thousands of gems are not going to be given out.

Good on @Kafka for handling this situation with grace and humility while not promising things that will never happen. No company is going to give out the equivalent of 60,000 gems, for example, due to bans, bugs, or server downtime, etc. That’s just not realistic nor how the industry works.

We are not customers paying for 24/7 access and service for this game. Whenever we as players spend, we get exactly what we purchased, and that’s all we’re entitled to. We are not entitled to exuberant compensation or exact 1:1 compensation for missed playtime.

TL;DR - Thanks to Kafka for dealing with this sticky situation. It’s good for all of us to discuss appropriate compensation, but making ludicrous demands and acting as though we are entitled to what translates to a fortune in-game is not beneficial to this conversation or ongoing communications between staff and the community.

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The top player on the leaderboard got 539 battles on weekly event. Is there a limit to the sigils we can buy? If there’s no limit, then the “economy” only matters when you give gems and not when you are selling them.

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So when they say it hurts the economy it means people would spend less real money if they had too many resources too easily gained if I am not mistaken.

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And why do you think this only is the case when we (players) are impacted? With this logic, for every ban they carry, they have to provide undeniable proof that the ban was done fairly, no? But they don’t. Unless this was a major mess up, they probably would not even acknowledge it at all.

It is a developer thing when their official documentation states that every single ban is done after going through a review process. They also mention that the bans are final since they have so few mistakes and they put so much effort on the review process such that if there is any doubt that the player might not be cheating that they won’t ban. Then, what happens? They secretly roll out an algorithm, based on some thresholds that has this “bug” that ends up banning 0.37% of their active player-base. Just in the day of the release of a new troop. If people on the forum did not outcry, then I wonder when they would have realized about this “bug” and how much of the playerbase would have banned before that.

Looking from a legal perspective, is there a case I can build based on their misdirection on the ban process so far (which Kafka already acknowledged)? After all, I pay for their services and also expect them to hold their side of ToS, right?

You analogy makes no sense, sorry. If you want to continue along that path: this is not a customer not being happy about their meal at a restaurant; that would be a bug in a new troop that would prevent us to use that troop or prevent us to use a game mode. This is a customer going into a restaurant and getting severely poisoned and hospitalized because the kitchen served bad (buggy) food. And not just one customer, thousands of them. Do you think a restaurant that would go through this would get away with a “free meal”? No, they would be shut down, permanently. What we are asking devs is to cover our huge hospital bill, damage to our organs, and the time we lost while we were passed out (with your analogy again :smiley: )

This is also what I did but I want to clarify one thing since this was not directly clear from dev’s and Kafka’s explanation. These bans WERE NOT caused only due to Kris (new troop). Did Kris or the change in treasure map farming logic caused the bug? Maybe and likely, but I was banned and I did not have Kris or faced Kris when this happened. They already acknowledged that it was due to acquiring too many (whatever threshold they have for this) treasure maps over a given amount of time. In other words, they realized that people will be interested in treasure map farming with Kris’ rollout, but they did not even investigate what their most active players already gain over time and set a (new?) threshold for treasure maps that would also lead to the ban of active players. On this topic, I am not talking only about myself, I know at least two more people that was banned that did not have/used Kris. So, don’t be fooled that this was a mistake/bug in a new troop. This was a mistake/bug in the way thresholds are set/handled, which will always be the case as the game introduces new resources or troops or modes to farm these resources more efficiently. As a very active player, THIS IS my main concern.

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Depending where that restaurant is in the world, it would also get burned to the ground, them folks will get harassed most likely even after justice was served :rofl:

(Sorry, I literally burst out laughing at this, thanks for that)

:smiley::popcorn:

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Not that my opinion will matter in this matter, but I feel like appropriate compensation would be around:

500 gems per day for unfairly banned players (depending on the player, devs can check their logs) for loss of gameplay time, resources, and loss of trust or emotional issues caused from losing play time during the holidays when they wanted to play (the ones that didn’t want to play probably didn’t get banned), which could leave a lasting impact on a player’s perspective if not rectified. These gems aren’t as big of deal as the upper brass may think since it’ll just get thrown right back into the next world event weekly guild req./bounty/raid/invasion/dragonite dragon dupe etc.

Either a 7 day Vault event or a 3 day Vault event with boosted Gnome rates for the general audience as a sorry we really messed up even if you weren’t a ban target. (this ban issue really should not have happened near the holidays, which created extra unnecessary stress or panic). Its probably the easiest non-comp compensation GoW could offer. You have to earn your own compensation back, so if you don’t end up playing, GoW loses nothing.

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I actually really like this. 500 gems would be equivalent to waaaaay less than I lost overall but a week long vault event would mitigate that. And it would compensate those not banned but in active guilds who had to do extra to compensate. There is no perfect solution here but this feels about as close as you can get.

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300 gems and 10 vip keys are no economy breaking. Hell 10 vault keys and 200 gems. 30 gem keys.

3 options nothing crazy. But yeah there is no really any motivation from the big guys at 505.

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This is really stretching the analogy really far. No one was injured or sent to the hospital. Comparing it actual injuries is too much.

This is more akin to the airline cancelling your flight. Does it suck, yes. Does it affect what you might have planned to do, yes. Does it mean that they are responsible for reimbursing you for your entire vacation, no.

Asking for missing tributes makes sense. Asking for missing rewards that you could have gotten IF you actively played the whole time it was down is too much. Why not ask for mythics to compensate for what you could have gotten from the glory you weren’t awarded? Or the resources you could have received from gnomes you would have encountered during grinding? Or max rewards from vault keys you could have earned and redeemed?

Even utilities aren’t responsible for missed opportunities when they go down. The power company isn’t going to reimburse you for a missed day of work or even the food in your fridge if it goes bad.

While I understand the sentiment of what you weren’t able to get when you had time to play, that’s not what reimbursement is tied to in any other case, and it’s beyond what we should be asking for or expecting in this case.

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No it is not.

Gems of war servers being down so that we would not be able to play the game, maybe in a region => yes. Similar to airline canceling the flight.

Banning players “by mistake” => more like pilot taking off without proper checks, realizing that the plan would crash, doing an emergency landing to another airport, and people staying in that airport for 2 days for additional help.

In both cases no one gets hurt. However, the experience and perceived impact is totally different.

Also to be clear, I am NOT asking what I could have gone if I would play all the time. I already play with that activity. They have access to my logs and play data; so they can look at last several months. Nothing in my calculation is something I don’t do regularly. I also mentioned that they could do the same computation for all impacted players and compensate accordingly or gave them the alternative to just compute for the most active and give that to all.

You (not you specifically but people defending the devs) are not getting the severity of banning someone, especially as a mistake or as a result of a bug. In your utility example, this would not be when they go down, this would be when they consciously deny service to you, shut down your power (although your neighbor has power) and then sending you a letter saying that they won’t provide you service because you tricked them.

Again Gems of War services being down would not be as severe as this; all services flake, games no exception. This WAS NOT a flake.

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I’m not attempting to prove, or even suggest, that they would have otherwise collected, and therefore lost, that much tribute. I think its fair to compensate them for what they might have lost, which means over-compensating them for actual tributes lost.

From my previous post:

This would amount to a little more than 2000 gems for the highest level players (how many players average 30 gems per tribute, my estimate for a top end player). Its 10x what’s currently on offer, and lower level players (i.e. most of the playerbase) wouldn’t get so much. And it also compensates not just for the actual amount of lost tribute (which is of course much harder to prove), but also for the fact they were wrongly banned, and missing out on the opportunity to grind for more, which I wouldn’t attempt to compensate for directly.

So its an estimate of “probable” losses, rather than “provable” damages. With a little bit extra thrown in as a show of goodwill, which usually happens when the devs offer compensation… its just they never messed up this badly before.
.

Not being disrespectful, and I really do mean that.

I would like to remind the entire company of one fact - the above is a false statement on game economics with Gems of War.

It would only be true if there was some sort of ability to sell/trade/barter/give with other players.
There is only the player and the game engine (RNG) when it comes to what the player owns.

Granted, there are bonuses and benefits from being in guilds, but again, the bottom line is whether someone gets 1000 gems or 100000 gems, there is NO impact to other players because there is nothing that that player can do to give to anyone else.

I know many players that rarely spend their gems, or glory.
I know people that have millions in gold.
I know people who play a hell of a lot more than I do.

Am I unhappy about the Ban and issues that transpired from it? Yes, because I decided not to play the Kringlemas event.

Anyway, just my thought.

I play just -to play anymore.

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You are not reading deep enough into what got communicated. The issue wasn’t that they forgot to adjust thresholds for Kris, because:

If the thresholds hadn’t been touched, you and those two other players wouldn’t have been banned. What likely happened instead was that they rolled out a new version of their detection tool, possibly still configured with some aggressive settings from their development system. If you look past the fancy wrapping this matches what they posted. The ban wave would have happened even without Kris, treasure maps were just one (and the most easily reached) key factor players got banned for. Other highly active players probably got hit for trophies, gold, souls, or whichever other resource they were farming.

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Much appreciate that your team acknowledges you did a very Bad Santa on us.

Yes this ban issue should absolutely compensate all players, the unfair-banned players should be compensated better than the rest of us. But players have as an example spent extra gems in that week’s World Event, so that their guild could earn all rewards.

I have to say that your procentage of banned people isn’t a number you can use as “it was only few that got banned”, because I for one played a lot less and avoided any troop and minigame that gave extra ressources. And I am not the only one.
As you have stated in another post, general player activity raises over the Holidays, so you can’t even tell how many that played less due to the ban issue.

So if the auto cheat detector and the issue that caused these autobans were fixed/tuned, why does Kris Kringle not drop the Treasure Maps again?

As a GM I have always taken it serious if a player was banned, luckily I have only had 1 player in my guild that ended up being banned after I tried to point my finger at this players results here. Now with auto ban, I don’t feel sure about if a player deserve a ban. Especially not after this issue. Are future Vault events safe?

Way too many aspects of this game brakes down, doesn’t work, is completely off when you have put a bot to do a humans job… and at the same time you stuff the game with passes for real money…

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Did we ever get a word on why the rogue banbot wasn’t disabled straight away once things started to hit the fan and Nimhain jumped in?
:thinking: :vulcan_salute:

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That.

Also, the fact that the devs are using bots to hand out bans in the first place. Using them to flag accounts to be reviewed by a human is fine, but bots dishing out automatic bans is going to seriously undermine player confidence in the game. I hope the devs change their policy on the use of such banbots.

Maybe if it wasn’t xmas, humans would have been reviewing accounts flagged by bots, and it wouldn’t take very many account flags to figure out there was a problem. Having said that, just leaving any flagged accounts until after the holidays wouldn’t be a problem, and as soon as anyone saw the massive in-tray of flagged accounts, it would be blindingly obvious the bots were, to put it mildly, “getting it wrong”.

And hacking for treasure maps??? Many players joke about how many treasure maps they have collected but never use. Any human in the loop would have realised this very quickly.

BTW: the treasure hunt mini game hasn’t had an update in years, and could certainly do with one so they can offer some of the resources added to the game since it was last updated. Which is exactly why people have such huge stacks of them that they never use, and why no-one in their right mind would cheat to get even more of them. If a player is going to cheat, they would surely target other resources.

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I was dreading and hoping that this would not be true. Sigh :frowning: Any suggestions, other than not playing the game at the frequency I am playing to account for this?

@Kafka I know that it is very unlikely to get a confirmation on this but if what fourdottwo is saying true, then can you PLEASE stress to devs that the way they are “improving” the auto ban detection is just going to fail miserably in the future? If this hypothesis is true, then the devs rolled out newer thresholds that are more strict without looking at the game data at all. They should always analyze the existing data to see what the players are already capable of, not just in the last days, but in the last several months (people try out record-breaking attempts once in a while) and set thresholds that are above (and when I say above, well above what had been already achieved in the game. This is not enough by itself either, every time there is a new troop, mode, or change (e.g., higher magic) that makes particular farming more efficient or faster, the devs need to adjust (i.e., increase) these thresholds. Anyone with a little bit of reasoning should be able to see how badly this will fail in a game that constantly evolves.

So, for the sake of whatever you believe, PLEASE:

  • bots handing out bans => BAD, really BAD, like 2023 horrible X-mas BAD.
  • bots flagging accounts to be reviewed and then humans that know the game and understand how things work reviewing the activity to decide on ban => GOOD.
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