Why Players think the AI cheats

[awryan]

First off the devs have emphatically said that the AI/RNG doesn’t cheat.
What they rarely explain is that there is a mechanic called “luck” factor that devalues your input as a player to “balance” the game.
I have always hated that mechanic cause though I’m sure it has gone in my favor before. It feels completely like a punch in the gutt when it doesn’t. Therefore I’ve a always been vocal that that “luck” factor should be removed completely. Or at the very least, from sigil based matches.

Today I can share a great example why.
I did Ranked PvP all of last week. Every time I won 40-50 matches in a row. The AI became unstoppable and I would lose. I used the same exact teams against the same exact defenses with the only difference being my win streak(Cause there’s not much variety in RpVp). And that win streak seems to matter more than my own play style. That’s relevant because I then decided I could probably tell when the AI was on FU mode and that I should record it. Because despite the gem shops and unpopular choices the devs may make for the game. The bottom line is it’s a match 3 game that should be fun. And taking away the players chance to win a match is not fun. GoW is supposed to be a strategy game. Not a game of chance. Too many players are quitting the game weekly. They are quitting basically because GoW isn’t “fun” anymore.

Today I was playing Tower of Doom on Floor 15, legendary room.
Webspinner was the defenses 4th troop and only troop left. I had a full team still.
On one single turn. Webspinner killed 3 of my troops thanks to skull drops Cascades.
All I had left was the Possessed King. I then cast tpk in hopes of keeping the match going from a full health TpK being killed by one skull match.
After the AI got 2-3 skull matches. I finally succumbed to the fact that no matter what I did. The AI was going to win. Evidently I was given bad luck by just starting a match and almost winning it. I then started recording it.

Here is the board before Marilith’s cast.

Here’s how many gems she could destroy “randomly”.

Here’s the board right after her cast. Mind you there was no active storms that would help the AI get a blue mana cluster.

And the predestined outcome of the match.

Here’s what I recorded of the match. I did not hit record until I was positive that NO MATTER what I did. The RNG would go in the AI’s favor and that I would lose.
Call it bias… Call it experience… Can’t debate what’s here in video form.

Cause you can't spell "luck factor" without a big F And U.

[Slypenslyde]

I’mma try and use bullet points to handle what I imagine are the most common responses, then write an essay anyway.

• Yes, “random luck” can cover this situation. Nothing in this one video is outside of probability.
• I feel the same about 40-50 PvP win streaks, they always end with something that hurts my feelings.
• I’ve always said losing in this circumstance is one of the most feel-bad outcomes in GoW.

It doesn’t matter if I understand the probability. It feels bad to play that one game where the opponent gets 8 moves and kills after I’ve made a mediocre 3 match as my opening move. Sure, I’ve probably done it 3 times in that 40-50 win streak. I don’t remember those because when you win 50 games you don’t really care how.

It feels bad.

That’s why I complain about it, that’s why AWR’s complaining about it. No amount of mansplaining or womansplaining is going to change that it feels bad.

I have desperately wanted a mode with no free turns for a long time. I feel like in that circumstance this kind of problem would be seriously mitigated. Yes, my teams would be slower because of it. I think it would also be better if every random effect were either barred or replaced with a fixed effect.

What I have noticed is because my teams do heavy board manipulation, I’m always playing a game of chicken. Most of the time, if you cast Flammifer onto a board with like, 10 red gems, you’re going to hit pay dirt and get a free turn. Sometimes, the gems appear in such a way that I don’t get to do anything with them, but my opponent gets a payday. It feels bad when this happens, because I made the “right” move and got hurt for it.

So this is the nature of GoW: in order to set ourselves up for huge cascades and overwhelming advantage, we have to be vulnerable to it blowing up in our own faces. There is no way to make getting your face exploded fun. Even if you get to eat ice cream before your face explodes. Even if it’s really good ice cream.

Sometimes, I’m in a really bad mood and GoW does what AWR recorded to me 4 or 5 times in a row. It feels bad. I was in a bad mood, and playing the game made it worse.

That’s why I’d like a “strategy mode”, where many of the dice rolls have been eliminated. We can’t eliminate cascades, but we can eliminate free turns. I think that’d remove the worst of this. We can’t fix it for PvP or the other game modes. Whatever. Let them be chaos explody high-variance fun.

Sometimes I like that. Sometimes I’m not happy with just the illusion that my moves influence the outcome. I can draw a board with skyfall that kills my team. I know it exists, and the RNG can set it up. No amount of understanding it’s the result of an indifferent world makes it feel good. It feels bad when it happens.

So I’m not looking for some grand explanation. I don’t think AWR is either. I think the best response is “yes, that is a crock of horse manure” and commiseration about our own situations where it felt bad to play GoW.

Oh, right, I forgot this one:

• You just want to win 100% of the time.

Yeah, maybe. You should play against me in Tetris Attack or Meteos. I will kick your ass at those games every time we play. You can even train for a month, it’ll just make it more fun for me to hand you your teeth. I have never had a friend that didn’t ban those games from our roster. In those games, we will start with the same boards and our RNG will be in sync. But I will be faster than you and more able to pick out the patterns I need to crush you. With every move I make, I’ll dump things on your side of the board that bring you one step closer to your doom. Those garbage blocks let me exercise more options at my leisure while you struggle to catch up. You will be crushed. You will ask me why the hell I spent 600+ hours on these games since I had so few friends. I will point out that question contains its own answer.

It works because it’s a skill-based game, and I’ve honed my skills. And if you do beat me, I will happily buy you a beer. And if I lose 100 times in a row, I’ll want to do what my friends did: play a different game. Imagine that.

But it really doesn’t matter how we do the matchups in GoW. I know no matter how many games we play, there’s going to be a couple where even if I had a time machine and could retry every time I lose, there is no series of moves that leads to a win. I know it deep in my heart. It feels bad. I wish there was a mode I felt relied more on skill.

[awryan]

I don’t know if this can be blamed on the luck factor.
But it sure is a “barrel of fun”.

A new (fake) mini game - killing bandits!

What do I win when the following happens in one match? Lust transforms my troop (one cast) Thief dodges my skulls that would of killed it (one chance, 2nd skull damage) During a Doom skull storm 15 gems were taken off the board from explosions resulting in 1 Doom skull dropping in the cascade. Bandit Spawned 6 times. (First troop was a fire Bomb) Why even have percentages? Just replace all the text with “could”. [How do I counter this? (Rhetorical Question)]

[anon80007423]

Hey,

often certain situations have more attention than others, because they’re more important in this situation.

I would say, that the “cheating” of the AI is in every game the same, but it’s getting more weight, the stronger the enemy is. For example: You play Floor level 1 with enemies dealing 10 damage or something. There are often situations where they get tons of skull-skyfalls too, hitting you 2 or 3 times. But in this situation you totally ignore it, because it’s not harming you in any way. The situation looks different, if you have a enemy dealing 100 damage, then exactly this 2 or 3 skullmatches is killing you 1 or 2 troops and in this situation you feel cheated. But that the skulldrops are usual as always, that’s something what’s ignored then.

I am positive surprised about the situation with Marilith. Usually, if a enemy destroys almost a half board, then you expect like 2 direct skullhits or half board covered in skulls
But I we check closer, we had 7 skulls on the board before she casted, after that also 7 skulls. So here I would even say, that no “cheating” was included, because ending up with one skullmatch after such a shuffle of a board is almost hilarious.

I am also always pessimistic in such close combats and instead of matching I would have probably used the King to have the chance, that you are stopping her from casting.

[awryan]

@anon80007423

I am also always pessimistic in such close combats and instead of matching I would have probably used the King to have the chance, that you are stopping her from casting.

And had gave her full life and armor if the cast actually worked…

[awryan]

@anon80007423

I am positive surprised about the situation with Marilith. Usually, if a enemy destroys almost a half board, then you expect like 2 direct skullhits or half board covered in skulls

She destroyed 21 gems… No where near half the board.
That resulted in one 5 gem match immediately. Plus 2 potential 4 gem matches as well as a skull match alignment.
In this case…3 skulls dropping in a row for a Cascade seems a lot more logical towards fairness than what actually transpired.

[Amadan]

@awryan

First off the devs have emphatically said that the AI/RNG cheats.

Finish the rest of the sentence. The devs have said that the AI cheats in the player’s favor and stops the computer from getting too lucky (while allowing the player to get as lucky as they can). And only in some game modes, and not in PVP.

Sooooo…your entire post is based on a faulty premise?

[awryan]

@Amadan

Finish the rest of the sentence. The devs have said that the AI cheats in the player’s favor and stops the computer from getting too lucky (while allowing the player to get as lucky as they can). And only in some game modes, and not in PVP.

Sooooo…your entire post is based on a faulty premise?

Feel free to show me exactly where a Dev said anything that you’re paraphrasing right now.

@awryan

First off the devs have emphatically said that the AI/RNG cheats.
What they rarely explain is that there is a mechanic called “luck” factor that devalues your input as a player to “balance” the game.
I have always hated that mechanic cause though I’m sure it has gone in my favor before. It feels completely like a punch in the gutt when it doesn’t. Therefore I’ve a always been vocal that that “luck” factor should be removed completely. Or at the very least, from sigil based matches.

I feel like I paraphrased the discussion’s before sufficiently. But even your statement is wrong given that the match I cited in the OP was from Tower of Doom.
If you’re not going to actually read what I said. Then please don’t bother me with your assumptive posts.

[awryan]

@Amadan

First off the devs have emphatically said that the AI/RNG cheats.

Now I did mistakenly forget a key word and just now corrected it to read “doesn’t cheat”.
So I do thank you for pointing that out.

[Amadan]

So if I put in the time to do the search for you and find where they said it, do you promise to absolutely positively stop with the retreaded, tired, tedious conspiracy theories?

[awryan]

@Amadan

So if I put in the time to do the search for you and find where they said it, do you promise to absolutely positively stop with the retreaded, tired, tedious conspiracy theories?

If you actually read my post. I’m describing why players think the AI cheats. Not that it actually does.
But since you won’t take the time to read before being argumentative. I have nothing left to say to you. Take care.

[Lyya]

Here is a post linking to many other dev posts with assertions and testing methodology regarding fairness.

AI getting too many drops on console, still?

The only time the Ai ever ‘cheats’ it does so in favour of the player at lower difficulty levels. There was a thread in March found here where our console developers ran numerous tests to determine if the AI was luckier than the player. The thread itself is a bit long and unwieldy so I’ve gone through and found all the relevant examples of this. Feel free to give it a read yourself if you have the time and inclination. Normal Difficulty

[awryan]

@Lyya

Here is a post linking to many other dev posts with assertions and testing methodology regarding fairness.

With all due respect. It still has nothing to do with my OP… My point is I would like “luck factor” taken out of the game completely. And that when players are complaining about the AI cheating… It’s due to scenarios like the one I had today.
95% of the players don’t get the luxury of seeing the explanation from the devs… They only see what they feel like is a screw job. What’s crazy is the official word saying… Yeah… That’s working as intended.

[AmberPeacemaker]

Just putting in me own 2 cents, at least you don’t have Wheaton’s Curse. Also,

I will say, that yes sometimes it does feel like the AI has decided it’s gonna roll three nat 20s in a row, curbstomping you. But there are also situations where it feels like I’ve rolled three nat 20s.

[awryan]

@AmberPeacemaker

I will say, that yes sometimes it does feel like the AI has decided it’s gonna roll three nat 20s in a row, curbstomping you. But there are also situations where it feels like I’ve rolled three nat 20s.

Yes… That’s exactly what the devs want.
I would prefer that neither scenario exists. And I doubt I’m the only one.

[Bobzilla34]

make it so we win all the time… that’d be so fun

[Jonathan]

@AmberPeacemaker

But there are also situations where it feels like I’ve rolled three nat 20s.

@awryan

I would prefer that neither scenario exists.

Tbh, I’d have to agree. I don’t feel good about the times I get three natural 20s - I don’t feel like it’s something I’ve earned, as a result of my skill.

I can imagine it might be difficult to code, though, and perhaps not Sirrian’s style.

@awryan

First off the devs have emphatically said that the AI/RNG cheats.

Now I did mistakenly forget a key word and just now corrected it to read “doesn’t cheat”.
So I do thank you for pointing that out.

Lol this actually helped me to better understand the main point a LOT.

[UKresistance]

Like there is no chance there are bugs in the combo breaker code. Or in seeding the rng.

I remember one challenge they forgot to turn on rng, starting board was exactly the same every time.

[awryan]

@Bobzilla34

make it so we win all the time… that’d be so fun

I assure you. Losses will still happen without the luck factor in the game. It will actually allow a better representation of skill level rather than just those who get lucky or don’t.
The adults are talking. If you want to post mindless memes then do it on your thread that’s dedicated to it. If you want to participate in this discussion then use your actual words. Assuming you’re capable of it.

[Slypenslyde]

I get it guys. It’s fun to beat up on AWR. He takes it so well, too, watching him squirm is fun.

But this is a textbook example of the situations I complain “feel bad” in this game. It’s not good when someone on top of the game’s complaining so loudly about it. It tells me there’s at least a dozen out there who are going to quietly burn out. The role of high-end players like AWR isn’t to spend money, but to help recruit new players for the game that will.

You think he’s telling his friends to join GoW? I think he’d be insane to. I think that matters to us, because if new people aren’t joining we’re not meeting new people.

So yeah, laugh it up. I know this happens to all of us. That’s probably part of why it seems about 10 of the forums’ best and brightest don’t post anymore.