When we implemented the changes to the RNG it was actually to make the game fairer. We found that the RNG was overwhelmingly in favour of the player when on normal, and still in favour of the player in Ranked PVP and Guild Wars. Now it is still slightly in favour of the player, but not the extent that it was previously.
We are still working on tweaking our algorithm to ensure that the game is fun to play, but any changes we made were just to re-balance the game. Some players prefer more of a challenge when playing, whilst others like the game to be easier. At the end of the day not all players can be satisfied with the AI or RNG, but we are trying our best to make as many happy as possible.
EDIT: To clarify, it is PC that is has had the combo breaker changed to be fairer. This combo breaker will be implemented on console with the next update, which should see console cascades be less streaky.
That’s just the improved fairness for AI. Perfectly normal lol. That’s not funny and funny at the same time. Not funny because there is a lot of that going on. Too much. Funny because 4x speed lol
Do you mean that all the battles I did since patch 3.0.5 were a lie?
Can we have more information about “the RNG was overwhelmingly in favour of the player”?
You implement different difficulties which is only based on stats of the troops but maybe the different level of fairness should be there… So if some players want some challenge, they just have to change the difficulty, activate “100% fairness”, etc.
Else a better choice of the difficulty like what was proposed here (GemCraft’s one is quite nice ;-)).
The PC AI was only allowed a small percentage of luck, unlike the player.
We are currently looking into further possible changes. I cannot shed any light on these as we are investigating several at this point in time. When we have decided how to move forward we will inform everyone of any decisions we have made.
All I did was add the text after EDIT? I realised that I forgot to specify which version of the game I was talking about, so made sure to go back and clarify that it was PC.
means nothing to me. Do players have more cascades, more lucky gem drops (ie extra turn coming from the Sky), etc.?
Is it related to that?
Because I really didn’t see any obvious advantage in terms of gem drops for the player… Of course, I’m biased…
You just said that we were doing unfair battles since 2.5 years… did I win all these battles because of this advantage?
Of course not all your fights over 2.5 were grossly unfair, but we have been very transparent over the last 2.5 years that the game does lean in favour of the player.
I feel like I haven’t explained things as well as I could have, so let me try again.
On normal mode, cascades and RNG are much more in favour of the player. In PVP and Guild Wars, the RNG is still in favour of the player, but to a lesser extent. This is even truer now we have fixed the RNG to be slightly fairer as of the PC move to Unity. This is in relation to the combo breaker that stops the AI getting too lucky with cascades.
There is another combo breaker in place in relation to gem spammers that stops both the player and the AI from getting an excessive amount of turns in a row. EDIT: This is not yet on console, but will be coming with the next update.
I have tried to explain this as simply as I can so there is no misunderstanding. Console will be getting the improved RNG and AI tweaks which should help eliminate some of the streakiness of cascades. We haven’t finished tweaking the PC RNG and AI behaviour, so when we make further changes we will let the community know.
@Saltypatra You keep throwing the words “challenge” and “fair” around. How about “fun?”
The issue here is the same as it was back during the dark days of the webspinner meta: The game goes beyond challenging to abusive when the player doesn’t even get to play the game. A lucky first turn AI cascade turns into multi-looping justice, valkyrie, mab casts. If the player is lucky enough to get another move, your team is already frozen so kiss any extra turn chance goodbye. Meanwhile Khorvash is filling and draining every other turn. Manage to get a Moloch or Famine cast? It’s ok, a lucky AI cascade gets them right back into the game.
You can’t argue the game into being fun. If the current state is “fair” for the poor AI, then fair isn’t fun. As long as each player is getting the same treatment as other players, the game is the only kind of fair that matters.
I’m extremely disappointed by this official response, but in the end it’s your game to change as you see fit.
The console AI and RNG are much fairer to both the player and the AI than PC.
You must be joking, once justice/mab gets looping is game over, I’ve watched all of Tacet streams and never ever have I seen the AI gets these insane amounts of luck on PC.
The AI on PC are much fairer then on console!!!
I’m not even trying fighting that team anymore it just feels so broken.
Actually what Salty said and what you said don’t necessarily contradict. The PC version has been (as stated) favouring the Player over the AI through the combo breaker. Console does not have this, meaning that it’s more balanced between AI and Player. So instead of a “luck balance” of 70/30 in the player’s favour on PC, Console has something closer to 55/45, which will SEEM like more luck for the AI, but in reality is more even overall compared to PC.
EDIT: Note: My “luck balance” number are purely illustrative, I don’t know any exact figures.
Are you talking about the console AI and RNG or the PC AI and RNG?
The changes we are bringing to console with the next update will help stop the prevalence of the looping meta with Justice. We have listened to the community regarding these teams and have been hard at work finding ways to fix the underlying issues causing these teams.
Hopefully when we make these fixes this should make the game a more enjoyable experience on console.
We are also working on further ways to improve RNG and AI across the game as a whole to further improve the experience of our players.
There’s one very important thing that isn’t mentioned here. Since the move to Unity, mana gain per turn has gone up significantly, rendering mana drainers next to useless. It often spikes for both sides, I’ve had my whole team fill up in a single turn just from cascades, and I’ve had the AI doing it. And it doesn’t require any kind of board seeding, it just happens.
Personally, I very much dislike this behavior. GoW played much more strategically before the patch, it was possible to control the board by carefully picking and granting matches. Whenever I lost a fight, I had the impression I lost it due to a bad move from my side. Now it feels entirely luck based, like playing a slot machine. Sooner or later there’s a miracle cascade that you couldn’t predict or avoid, the one who gets it wins.
Are there any plans to go back to the old play style? I don’t mind losing more often, it’s just that I’d rather do it because I didn’t play well, not because I lost a dice roll.
So I’m carefully watching the number of gems on the board, before casting my gem spawner. Let’s say I cast Justice (or any other gem creator) and I select to create skull gems, with 15 blue gems already on the board. I get lucky and another turn → good (cause I cast the spell when there were a lot of blue gems on the board).
I continue to cast justice, with a lot of blue and skull gems on the board so theoretically I continue to get extra turns because there are so many gems of those 2 types (blue/skulls). Then at some point the “system” decides that because I got a few extra turns I’ll have to be punished, even though I am casting the spell in favorable conditions every time (a lot of gems of the types I’m creating). And it just doesn’t give me a 4 or 5 match and sets up the board for my opponent to outright destroy me → what the hell?
Now, you could argue, the same is true for the AI. He will lose his turn eventually too, even though he had a really high chance to get another extra turn. But I don’t see the fun in that. To have the system decide whos luck ran out.
I don’t want any of these combo breaker breakers, balance the troops without implementing checks that break true RNG.
It feels like I’m not playing the game, instead the game is playing me.
The ‘fair’ tag is used a lot… but, as mentioned above, it should be about fun. Not many want to battered by the AI cascades 50% of the time because it is fair to the AI.
The current condition of the AI is completely gamebreaking. Leaving console in that state for another number of months is really poor. The game is lucky to have such loyal and devoted players, it would kill of so many other titles.
I get that people are upset, and it’s fine to voice your opinions and state your issues.
However, I would hope and suggest for all to keep comments as “non-inflammatory” as possible. As I was scrolling through this, I felt a lot of these players concerns myself, but even more-so, I was surprised at how much @Saltypatra was keeping an open dialogue… especially when you could tell some people were just angry and no answer she could give would change their opinion/tone.
I’ve seen other boards like this, and it’s surprising how much the devs actually check into and respond to the feedback of the board users. You have to understand that, while the most vocal, the forum goers here represent, what? About 100 or so users of the entire game population? There’s much more going on out there than we can see from our perch.
Attempt to listen to what Salty and the devs are saying, know that they hear us, and if they say they are working on a solution, trust that they are. When they come out and officially say “solution X has been implemented”, and THEN you feel there is still a problem, then voice your concern again.
At this point, everyone is beating a dead horse. We’ve heard this complaint a thousand times by now, the devs have acknowledged that they hear it, and are taking steps to make it better. The least we can do is try to let them implement that change/fix, and THEN open up dialogue about it again.
Don’t burn the house to the ground, or else we won’t have a place to live.
fine leave it more “fair” the new way but make it fairly skydrop less often for both sides, like before 3.0.5?
that extra offen skydrops are taking really a lot of fun out of the game, its no good
then give that small percentage of luck to the player instead of raising both
for myself im speaking about the PC
the frequency of skydrops and generally looping (especially on ai side) is not fun, why not keep it more like previous version even if it was a bit more “unfair” ?
