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[REPORTED] Arena and Sunbird. Old problem resurfaced

Platform, device version and operating system:
Windows x64

Screenshot or image:
Before:

After:

What you were expecting to happen, and what actually happened:
This is well-known problem before Transformation rework: as transformation treated like summon, self-transformation was descended spiral: as your magic is not match your level, you get lower level result that gives even less magic that resulting in degrading unit with every step.

It was removed now in “common” game - unit after transformation retains it’s level, so no degradation. But in Arena it’s still here: I just lost nine levels from my Sunbird after casting Resurrection. And after 2-3 casts it will be L1.

How often does this happen? When did it begin happening?
Always on Arena, it seems.

Steps to make it happen again

  1. Use Sunbird.
  2. Cast Resurrection.
  3. Observe dramatic level (and characteristics) decrease with each cast.
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This happens on EVERY summon in arena. Which is why summoners are low on my list of pickable troops in Arena.

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It wasn’t removed, you just grew strong enough to outpace it in “common” games. Summoning happens at caster level, meaning at 10 magic the summoned troop will be level 10. With all bonuses piled up it’s currently easy to summon troops at level 20, the cap for player troops. Arena intentionally ignores all bonuses, so summoned troops show up weaker. Not a bug, even though it’s a spiral towards insignificance for Sunbird.

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Except that there are’nt any “bonuses” on the INITIAL troop either. You are correct, in “common” games, there are bonuses that do not apply to summoned troops, so the summoned troop is lower level.
But Arena does not have those bonuses, ever, including the original troop. There is no reason a rebirth Sunbird should have lower stats than the original IN ARENA. Or Hyena. Or Summoner when it brings up a Bone Golem, and on & on & on.
What appears to be happening is that the summons is based off the Magic stat. That should not be the case in Arena, in the example above, it should just summon an exact copy of the original. But that’s not the way it is coded.
And that’s why it’s a bug.

Bonuses as in kingdom bonus stats, delve bonus stats, guild statue bonus stats. They all raise the Magic stat, so summons outside of Arena tend to show up at level 20.

Well, yes, that’s what I was trying to explain. Summoning is based on the Magic level of the caster, it’s always been like this. Arena troops always summon a lesser version, because their Magic stats doesn’t get boosted to 20. No, they should never summon an exact copy, unless their Magic stat is high enough for an exact copy. Arena doesn’t warp the game rules, you also don’t get red mana credited for matching blue gems.

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In common games, it summons a copy of Sunbird from your inventory. In explore my Sunbird had 56 attack, 69 armor, 111 life & 57 magic & did base 63 damage before boost. When it resummoned, it’s stats were 56 attack, 69 armor, 108 life & 57 magic. That means it got bonuses from kingdoms, factions, medals, what have you. And yes, it is most likely based off magic (Although the magic stat did not drop, so it’s kinda of a moot point). I know it summons off of your inventory, because when I was playing dragon teams a lot, a few times it summoned Empirina, a troop I did not have yet at that time. That Empirina was level 5, no traits, and easy pickings.
What my point is, is that Arena summons should NOT be based on magic, but rather summon an exact copy of the troop it replaced. They HAVE to have that troop template seperate of the troop in your inventory, because that is what is shown as the original troop in Arena. So it would work just like the common games, only with no bonuses.
Now, how easy would that be to change, I have no idea. But it’s (one of) the reasons a lot of people find Arena un-fun to play.

I might have missed it, what’s the reason for your point? Why should Arena suddenly behave differently than the rest of the game?

I’m quite sure people would find Arena even more un-fun to play if summoners were buffed to always summon level 15 troops. An extra troop already has huge value in that mode, even when it shows up at lower level.

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Because it does not seem that in the common games, the summon is based off the magic stat. If it was, each successive summon would have lower and lower stats. But Sunbird keeps appearing with the same stats ( 56 attack, 69 armor, 108 life, 57 magic) over & over, no matter how many times it’s cast. Instead it summons a copy from your inventory.
But in Arena, it does seem to be based off the magic stat, which is why the summoned copies keep getting lower & lower stats.

It would show up at level 57, except that it gets capped to level 20. Then it receives all the passive stats your account has on top of its base level 20 stats. Unless you somehow manage to improve your account stats during a fight that will always sum up to the same 56 attack, 69 armor, 108 life and 57 magic.

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And to test, you can easily verify this by letting a Hive Mind (or whatever magic-eliminating troop best suits you) cast against your team of Sunbirds. Get to magic 0, and then you’ll see the behavior (as long as you don’t have enough boosts to get you past Magic 20).

it’s not a bug, it’s how summon mechanic works - summoned troops always have their level set as:
min (caster magic, level_cap)
which in arena is:
min (caster magic, 15)

level_cap for player depends from rarity of summoned troop in players inventory (or base rarity if troop is unowned)
level_cap for AI is set up as troop level of the battle

This is working as intended. And you can see this even outside of Arena -> just pick a high level delve or ToD room. Let’s say lvl 200. Any troop summoned by lvl 200 enemy summoner, will have its level set to that summoner magic stat(because it’s usually way lower than level). You can also try emperinazara battles at lvl 50 and let emperinaza proc with her trait to reach magic 50+, summoned kobolds will be capped at lvl 50.

You can test it even easier with Web. This is how it works, and has been for a while.

Worth noting that there was a point in the game’s history where all summons came in at the arena cap (level 15), but that was “fixed” long before the recent revamp so it was likely considered a bug (I found the original “bug report” with some people stating at the time this was working as intended, but then later that it didn’t work like that, but couldn’t find the official word or when it changed).

The problem with a lot of other summoning troops in arena (not Sunbird here) is not just that they have to rely on magic stats but also that at some point in the game’s history the devs inexplicably stopped giving base magic to summoners that didn’t have another effect that scaled off magic. This is a double-whammy to troops with a dedicated summoner role - not only do they not have an additional scaling effect but because they don’t, they can’t even summon effectively. For example, The Infernal Machine has a base magic of 0 regardless of level, even though it relies on magic to summon, because it doesn’t have other components that scale with magic. Even worse for something like Fel Dragon Egg. Compare to something like Kobra, which has a base magic of 12 at level 20 (7 at level 15, damage is +4 with a potential boost ratio, while not easy to set up in the arena, and can summon 1 or 2 troops). If you want a more recent example, look to Book of Secrets, which has a base magic value because it has a different spell component that scales off magic.

This isn’t a rarity thing either, and it isn’t just limited to troops introduced in delves (eg., Queen Moonclaw versus any of the many legendaries introduced both before and after that deal damage and also summon). Its almost as if at some point whoever was in charge of assigning base level 1-20 stat spreads forgot that magic scaling is actually present for summons before you have piles of stat bonuses.

Edit: I say they started doing this after a certain point because very clearly old troops that only summon have their full magic scores, and in these days they generally had higher magic scores than their non-summoning counterparts, eg., Giant Spider, with a base magic of 17 at level 20. It didn’t seem like a conscious decision to double-nerf troops with a primary role of summoner in recent times, more likely an oversight.

So yes, the way magic works in arena as regards to summon is probably working as intended, including Sunbird issue in original post. But some other summoning troops are straight up missing their base magic, likely due to an oversight.

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A while back, Saltypatra explained the differences between a Summon and a Transform:

https://community.gemsofwar.com/t/not-a-bug-copies-of-enemies-inconsistent/59070/6

That’s only half of knowledge:
Trait’s summon: When a troop is summoned as a result of trait, it uses original troop level.
Transform: When a troop is being transformed by enemy. It’s level is halved and all traits are lost.

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Tested. Yes, you are right. I am too strong, so even if my “common” Sunbird have heavy magic drain, I usually miss it. I just delevelled magic to 6, and Sunbird resurfaced indeed as L6 troop - with 18 magic, so it will recover it after the next cast.

Hmm, then it never was fixed - and that’s also means that “resurrect”, just as every self-transformation spell is still bugged.

I agree that summon works as intended. Problem is - “self-summon”, as Sunbird or, say, Nosferatu must not be treated the same rules as summons, otherwise it’s quite defeat the point of transformation. I just tested Nosferatu/Bat Swarm/Umberwolf - it doesn’t affected by magic indeed (I stealed all magic, and still got L20 troop after transformation), so it’s only Sunbird problem, and maybe some other troops with “resurrection” mechanics (I know only Infernal King, but it’s quite hard to test).

Infernal king resurects from his trait so he always gets same level as he was.

śr., 13 sty 2021, 17:24 użytkownik Smiling Spectre via Gems of War | Forums <gemsofwar@discoursemail.com> napisał:

So it’s literally one troop overlooked. Sunbird. Looks like a bug for me.

“Rising from the ashes” may not necessarily be the same effect as “resurrecting” (despite the spell being named “Resurrection”).

I always thought Sunbird was designed to be this way, and personally I like it a lot, it is quite poetic: going off in a blaze and then coming back, but each time a little less powerful, much like a flame getting smaller and smaller the more it burns and consumes.

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Well, it doesn’t work this way for any team developed enough. I totally missed this bit since I got enough +magic, and if not Arena then I would never notice it again. So I still think it’s overlooked bug.