PvP Diversity Issues

#1

Platform, device version and operating system:
PC/Mobile

Screenshot or image:

What you were expecting to happen, and what actually happened:
I was expecting to be able to choose from three different teams. Instead, I got three very similar teams.

How often does this happen? When did it begin happening?
This has been happening a lot every since the PvP match-making changes (yes, I know that was months ago – it’s not getting any better). Maybe I’m just having a bad day/week, to be annoyed by this again. But I recall the stated intention of the changes being to increase the diversity of teams to choose from.

The actual effect, as perceived by most players, seems to have been an increase in Infernus and Dragon Eye teams and the almost complete disappearance of Fire Bomb teams. Regardless of what was truly intended or implemented, it’s not a good look. It really does look like the change JUST reduced the likelihood of Fire Bomb teams.

I’ve also noticed, when the patch first went live, that paying Gold to cycle teams in Casual PvP basically just kept cycling me through the same 20-odd players (especially when the US is asleep). That’s even worse!

In the end, if the intention of the patch was to increase the diversity of opponents (as stated), unfortunately it has been a failure.

I think we’d all like to see this addressed.

#2

I must be playing a different game than you. Though i see fewer firebomb teams overall, i rarely have an issue choosing a non-dragon eye team (or any specific meta team i’d rather not deal with) from the 3 presented to me. Occasionally 2 of the teams are similar but rarely ever all 3. I don’t believe for a second this patch has been a failure and from this other thread i’d say a fair number of others would disagreed with your blanket “perception”.

Not everyone was happy with the change but more diversity than there was before seems to have been achieved according to many of the posters there.

#3

Thanks for your thoughts.

It may be that I’m effectively playing a different game. As I mentioned, being in Australia I’m often playing when American players are asleep. It could be that the opponent diversity drops severely at that time.

I’m definitely not experiencing the kind of choice that you seem to get. In theory, that could be due to randomness, but part of the aim of the PvP opponent patch was to remove randomness, so I don’t think that’s a fair explanation in this case.

Incidentally, while it’s possible that my comments don’t apply to as many players as I thought, I’ve definitely spoken to many people who’ve had a similar experience. (I’m also quite happy to fight DE teams and Divine teams, I just see them way more often than I believe I should.)

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#4

I agree that the patch has failed for diversity. There are many times when it is just the same teams over and over again. Starlite, as far as playing at certain times of day, I play during the day in the U.S. and still see less diversity than before the patch.

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#5

That’s the ugliness of a black-box matchmaking algorithm: you are playing a different game.

We don’t know anything about how the game chooses your matches. That means we can’t assume both you and Starlite ever even have the same pool of possibilities.

What I have observed seems to support ideas like:

  • Team power is a strong factor in match selection.
  • Player level is a strong factor in match selection.
  • Not “every possible player” is considered.

The last point is the one that can cause different players to see wildly different things. If you play an awful lot of PvP you’ll start to recognize several opponents. I have theories that something like this happens for optimization:

  • Players have an “activity score” that increases when playing the game and decreases when “idle”, with some generous definitions of “idle”.
  • There are multiple game servers and “activity score” is a per-server calculation. (That is, you are permanently idle if a particular server isn’t handling your requests.)
  • The pool of available PvP players includes only players whose activity score is greater than some threshold, and is possibly limited in magnitude.

The concept of searching “all players” for an appropriately-leveled opponent with the right team score seems expensive. So the game’s likely doing work to cull “all players” to a smaller set that it can further divide into buckets so it can ask for 3 appropriate opponents quickly and cheaply.

I feel like we can observe this is true if we look at our opponents over a few hours. If I play hardcore for 2 hours, there are always 3 or 4 opponents that pop up 4 or 5 times. That’s indicative of my “random” opponents being pulled from a pool slightly smaller than it “should be”.

So if all of my above deductions are true, it’s very possible two players playing at the same rate during the same time period will have completely different PvP pools if they aren’t, for some reason, being routed to identical servers. Add time zones and play patterns to that and it’s very likely there are players who will never have the same matchmaking pool.

Given that, it isn’t absurd to assert the possibility that one pool has an abundance of one kind of team while others could be more diverse.

And given that likely factors in determining if you are in the same pool as another include geography, time zone, and play patterns, it seems intuitive that certain sets of players are very likely to either never be matched or frequently be matched.

THEREFORE, I argue it’s very likely most players in GoW have very different views of the PvP matchmaking algorithm.

(Also keep in mind the above is especially true for players across platforms: there is no way for a console player to face PC/mobile opponents and vice versa.)

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#6

It’s silly that they won’t just tell us what is supposed to happen to diversify matchmaking. Is it a bug? I dunno. You never said how it is supposed to work.

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#7

This could confirmation bias. But I feel like if I lose to a defense in RpVp then I’m more likely to see it again repeatedly. I’m not saying that’s good or bad. Just an observation. I don’t know your win/loss rate @Starlite but that may be what’s causing constant repeats for you. 🤷

#8

Other relevant considerations:

  1. There aren’t a lot of really good defenses. If 100 people are choosing between 4 or 5 distinct choices, it makes sense some large % will make the same decision.
  2. Really clever variants aren’t likely to be PvP defense because players are encouraged to save “smart” teams for GW.

I haven’t kept a tally but I feel like I face maybe 4 or 5 distinct teams 90% of the time with the remaining 10% split between weird experiments or “have some free event gems”.

Every now and then it blips. In that “4 or 5 distinct teams” it feels like every month or so a new team rotates in. But the cheesy ones like Dragon’s Eye and Lust stay put, I’m imagining mostly for their notoriety.

Most players are lazy. The rewards for winning on Defense aren’t worth spending much time setting up the team. So they’re either going to pick something obvious or something random.

#9

Where I am it’s a huge percentage of egg thief/ cedrick/ skeleton key or bronzelock variants. Lots of them to be sure… But I have noticed at times that certain teams repeat. Only noticed because the name was the same for the hero.
Agree completely that there are repeats when doing the gem or gold switch. Not like it matters I try killing em all

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#10

Can you please clarify how often you see this occurring in a week?
What were the exact Troops each of the Enemy teams?

With only one screenshot or mention of this happening I can’t ascertain if it looks like it is working as it should be. Although the changes were indeed intended to diversify PVP, like the other aspects of the game based on chance it can still happen.

#11

Fair enough. I’ll try to screenshot every team during my PvP Tier climb next Monday. That should be a sufficient sample.

In the case above, the top two teams were identical except for order; the lowest team had two different troops. Unfortunately, I didn’t screenshot it.

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#12

It has always seemed to me that u always play people currently online only(minus the first battle, left over from last time online)
The only difference I saw since the related update was less firebomb teams

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#13

Thanks for that @Starlite - it would be great if you could document the teams if you see it again, and how often you seen this in a week. :ok_hand:

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#14

How do you not keep track of teams offered? I’m pretty sure that is server and not client decided.

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#15

Screenshots. Lots of screenshots. :slight_smile:

#16

Isn’t it more like limiting the points for higher level players. You know when new players start they know they will need to play more to get stronger, but you limit the higher players so the low level plays can play catch up quicker? All in all it’s unfair & makes for ill feelings by players who HAVE put the time & effort in to grow stronger. You are targeting & making the game much more unfulfilling for Players who have worked hard. This makes the game a lot less fun, no wonder I’ve seen top players quit & delete the game altogether. Just a notice for those who would like to keep their players & especially the ones who invest real money to support the game they love. Just a thought.

#17

I don’t understand your post. What points are being limited? How are higher level players being limited and how are they being targeted? Are you talking about something related to pvp diversity?

What makes the game less fun? In my experience “top players” quit mainly because (1) they’ve accomplished everything & don’t want to continue grinding endlessly (2) because they burned themselves out trying to accomplish everything too fast or (3) the game evolved into something they don’t like or is no longer as fun as it was.

Player attrition will always occur. In most cases this is healthy because it makes room for new “top players”. People will always get bored & move on. And of course there will always be those who stick with it right up to the day the plug is pulled on the game.

#18

Hey Nonsheep, this is a little off-topic, please post a new thread in game feedback/questions if you have anything that isn’t directly related to the same teams appearing in PVP matches (i.e lack of PVP diversity). :slight_smile:

#19

This has been my experience as well since the changes. I’ll have a smaller pool to play through. I’m on the XBox (PST) and play early AM and evening.

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#20

Hey there, if you notice this happening please share some screenshots along with the teams offered for each of the 3 opponents and let us know how often it happens in a week.

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