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How to improve the "end game"

Hello guys,

I’ve been playing for around 2 years and decided to come on up and share some feedback and ideas to make, in my opinion, the “end game” more fun, more rewarding and keep the “thrill” you need to keep enjoying GoW. It relies mainly on 3 mains points (PvP, farming and hero classes) and some options to make things more efficient.

Someone pointed out that a summay would help “market” the ideas to the dev, so here we are.
1 - incentives to vary defense teams in PvP and avoid to fight meta team after meta team.
2 - add a back-office to apply “rules” as for how the AI should play your defense team.
3 - stop with the mindless farming please! New content is good while it makes the “strategy” part of the game richer, not when it just make the game a collection of chores…
4 - scale battles rewards with the level of the defeated units (except for in PvP where it’s OK).
5 - give back level 20 vaults with base “1” multiplicator when you reach level 500…
6 - heroes should get one “genre specific” skill tree and more coherent choices for talents.
7 - heroes and units should have “switchable” traits to make them more flexible and give them usefulness throughout the game, not only at the beginning or at the end.
8 - possibility to reallocate stats on a unit and make things like a wall with attack a thing of the past (with some limistes of course).
9 - give something for heroes level 100 when they win, for instance reinforcing the first trait (after X victories, rather than 2 LP, you get 3 LP bonus, etc.). Otherwise, what’s the point of leveling a hero you won’t use since he won’t get better with xp?
10 - just like for heroes and units, allow more tinkering on weapons. I can’t get over the waste of weapons creating gems or a tempest of a stupid colour…
11 - make the teams the cornerstone of everything (the medals, the customization of hero and units, etc.).

First is about PvP. This is the “go to” place to try out your teams and get some fresh air. However, as things stand today, I just get to fight the same boring teams over and over (rope dart, gobelins, life and death, queen bee for most of them). This really ruins the fun to the point I devised teams just to take them down like a machine. No suspense, no thrill. It’s just too predictable. Maybe you could put in place a system that reduces PvP rewards for those who rely on “overused units” or reward use of uncommon units. Anything that might clear this “copycat mania”. If we could also set “priorities” (a set of rules) for our defense teams, it might make them more varied, cause the AI is kinda… well, it kinda sucks. Just one exemple: for “starter” units, decide whether to use its spell if you don’t get a 4 gems match (plus a gimmick on frozen clause) or if the enemy team will get one (based on what’s on the board obviously) or if the amount of mana, even without a match 4 would be superior to a fixed amount (without accounting for banners).

Second is about farming. While I generally do enjoy new content, I didn’t appreciate the recent additions. A life of soulless farming to upgrade even one kingdom to level 15, boring new weekly “challenges” (just more farming in disguise, while I’m not even mentioning all those continuous boring unrewarding repetitive multiplying guild events). The only useful guild event is the Doom Tower, where we get interesting weapons and the scroll to upgrade them… To continue on farming, I do find really frustrating that rewards don’t scale with the level of the enemy teams. You win in 10 seconds against an AI team level 20 and get the exact same rewards for taking down a level 150 or a level 500 AI team in 1 ~ 2 minutes. That doesn’t really make sense in my opinion. This leads me to pointing out the fact that I can’t get back to level 20 vaults once I reached level 500. Too bad, cause it was a great addition to level up those damn class levels…

Third, time to write about those hero classes. Just like I commented on PvP, there are several overused classes (frost mage, titan, orbweaver, thief, sunspear, and that’s about it at high level). The rest is between rarely and never used and that’s part of why PvP has become surpriseless. I think each class should have a specific class tree linked to its genre (monster, gobelin, dragon, etc.) and more flexibility to pick more varied talents, whether you want to turn into a tank, a “skull killer” and a mage, or even other possible choices. Isn’t it weird that a fairy class (frost mage here) doesn’t get the level 100 talent that gives fairies 2 LP each turn while other classes unrelated to fairies do? That might apply to traits too, like some classes (Warden is a true a masterpiece) only have useless traits - or useful only at very low level. If we could choose between several traits, that would really boost the possibilities! For exemple, the monster hero might be super powerful when you have low stats but pointless whan you have all kingdoms at level 10, that’s pretty sad… And why do we have three elfs or demon classes while I’m desperately waiting for an elementary class? To finish on classes, I do find kinda upsetting that there’s “nothing” at level 100. Most of the talents are clearly disappointing and you can play it but the class xp is lost. So I can finally use “fire sword” but I won’t gain xp from this fight… I advise you to convert this xp into something else (souls, bonus for the first very useless trait, etc.). If classes were more specific, players would still continue to level up other classes to go for new tactics to try on the battlefield, directly linked to the potential of the other units, especially of the same “genre”. Talents are more or less useful depending on your overall level.

Though you might find me very self-centered at this point, I think some new ways of playing the game would really lighten the “end game”. New challenges with different rules (“hoards” of enemies – spawning a new unit after you defeat one – long time battling challenge relaying on “durability”, timed battle (number of turns, time limit), reserve units, special gems, one clour will never drop, more units on a team, different layers of spells (charge 1 at 10 mana, charge 2 at 15 mana, charge 3 at 20 mana, a switcheroo mode where you buildd you team over the defeated ennemies, etc.) etc.) and scaling rewards. In PvP, everything is fast-paced, there’s no place for durable teams… and no places for around 70% or more of all the units. That’s just cutting through all the work you did to design so many units! Though I’m really disappointed by all those new useless mythics recently. Except for upgrading kingdom, they are mostly never used in PvP (at the very least as far as defense teams are concerned) and I guess nobody uses them in PvE either. Just like heroes, if we could tweak them a bit (choose between several traits for instance or if we could choose to allocate the stats points differently – thanks to the kingdoms, even a wall gets attack… those points should go to life and armor, not mindlessly stack), the possibilities would multiply, as it would only strengthen one of the most addictive aspect of this game that is precisely making the best out of countless options to win. Building and trying out teams is fun, even more so if it’s far from the “standards” and really “fits” the player. The same applies for weapons, as some upgrades are really risky (why waste some doom weapons with things like “create a brown gem” that might ruin the match 4 you’re aiming for with skulls?).

The medal system is great but it should be linked with each team rather than globally. It’s a pain to switch medals when I change teams (more magic, more attack, purification…) with different needs. The same goes for hero’s talents, that might be used differently from team to team. Teams are the cornerstone of GoW. And if you decide to make changes for more varied builds like I suggested, stats, traits and such should also be linked to a team, not to a unit.

There are other bit of things, like just how it seems a waste that you get completely “unthemed” units in vaults compared to their origin kingdom (why mix knights and undeads?!). Familiars are already a pain to collect, it would be really nice if you stopped putting in “cosmetic” units that just make it harder to level up the useful ones. The cake is a lie as some said…

It took me quite a while to write this much feedback and I hope it will inspire some changes in the game. Though it’s massively about how I’d like the game to change, I enjoy it and hope you’ll keep running it smoothly!

10 Likes

As for boring PVP, some time ago I made a proposal on making a pvp tournament thingy:

Could bring some fresheness into the game.

As for farming. Few things:
Some World Events have points scaling with level, other don’t. But most of Guild events are pure farming… more or less brainless farming. As for delves. Once you reach 500, you can always do 50 or 500. Nothing between. But you can exp your class there.
Other than that, there’s gold farming(for guild tasks and kingdoms), pet gnomes farming(for kingdom power levels), medal farming (for medalling your troops). Basicaly, this game is build arround farming this or that resource type. At least if you want to run after such carrot.

As for classes. Many people, many times pointed out that classes need to be reworked to be more balanced. Even if it would be some minor changes (changing class type into another + reshuffling some of talent tree between classes), there wasn’t much feedback to it. To showcase one example:

Probably most useless class in-game is Oracle. Weak traits, weak talents, no realy good synenergies to go with… For any other class i can do a decent team, which will be somewhat usefull.

Not every unit is designed to be “end game” content. Some of them are designed as mediocre or weak, but that doesn’t mean early/mid game players wont find a team to fit them in.

Also there are troops i regulary/often use in GW, that i almost never find in PVP (to name two: Mother of Darkness or Gray King). Thing is, not every troops is as useful in defence as in offence.
And otherwise, not every troop good in defence is good for offence (like orbweaver +ld combo is pretty crap as offense… or using Lust as attacker…)

Agree with you that some new,fresh, entertaining mode would be much appriciated. World Events and Campaigns aren’t it.

2 Likes

I’m at the start of end-game having played “only” 8 months now so keep that in mind regarding my feedback.

While I actually enjoy guild events, especially the team making, I agree that once a team is chosen, you’re just grinding that until you run out of sigils or your guild gets all reward tiers. However, even the choosing of teams can lead to multiple different teams (as happened in the past), especially since we have a guild with all player levels and the lack of troops by one player means we have to get creative.

As for PvP, I completely agree that it is annoying to keep seeing the same teams, but there will always be meta teams as long as synergies exist. Yes, AI could be improved, play-styles and options could be added, but metas will always be around. Honestly, I completely avoid PvP other than reaching Tier 1.

I enjoy the mindless explore farming, even though I know that it’s not for everyone. And as @Sytro has mentioned, farming is what endgame “is all about”. And this is precisely the issue I think you’re addressing with this thread: How to change endgame to something more fun/interesting or at least not as mindless.

Since I don’t know how things were before, I don’t know how willing Devs are to revamp something so completely like the 3 levels of spells. They can tweak AI rules, they can rework troops and classes, and they can reward/punish certain behavior (like scaling battle rewards based on difficulty/speed of fight, kind of like they do with PvP difficulties or GW points). For constantly making teams, you have arena (even though that’s it’s own monster that requires special attention).

With all that said, a new game mode is incoming (if rumors are to be believed). After the initial surprise/excitement, it will undoubtedly become yet another farmable mode. The reason being that this game is made for farmers. There’s nothing keeping you from playing as much or as little as you want other than FOMO.

And to address your “thrill” seeking, that’s delves for me. This week I managed to clear 500 pure faction on 3 delves. It felt like the culmination of a long process and I even did a little dance to celebrate. With a new game mode, that will be part of it again.

I guess what I’m saying is, maybe because I’ve been playing for such a “short” time, I haven’t become jaded by the repetition. I don’t care about the mythics except for the “thrill” of seeing that cerulean blue pop up from opening chests or getting/crafting that specific mythic that I’ve heard is particularly fun/powerful.

So I guess the question is, what fulfills you? I know you like making teams and don’t like mindless repetition, but what exactly are you seeking? Is it:

  • A challenge?
  • Variety of opponents?
  • An achievable/farmable long-term goal?
  • Another community/guild cooperative event like Tower of Doom (definitely like this)
  • All of the above?
  • Something else?

Of the things you suggested (think I mentioned this above), I only really harmonized with:

  • Scalable difficulty rewards (which technically exists in PvP and Explore but not in any other mode, unless you could Raid Boss or specific guild events)
  • New or remastered classes
  • Some form of bonus/penalty for PvP fights.

Regarding PvP, someone suggested something that I really liked which was Kingdom/Color/Troop-based bonuses for using a Kingdom/Color/Troop for PvP that week. Currently, there is no real benefit to winning or losing a defense in PvP, so the defense team is at the discretion of whoever makes them. If something was added to restrict or at least provide incentive for constantly changing teams, that would could lead to more diversity in PvP defense teams. Of course, that doesn’t impact GW but not everyone cares for GW.

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Hello @Sytro,

I find commandable how far you thought your idea for adding a new layer of PvP, though what I had in mind at the beginning was more likely based on a “free to go” approach. I really like how rich are the options for making teams, so too much restrictions on how to build you teams would make it… boring? Frustrating? It’s hard to find the balance between freedom and restrictions though, especially for low level players with way less leeway to make teams. The idea of a new “PvP” mode still strikes my fancy, where you could have leagues with different kinds of parameters or bonuses if you decide to fulfill conditions (full colour team, no “generator” type of unit, etc.).

I can put up a nice team for almost every hero but it’s just sad most of them aren’t “competitive”. I feel like it’s a real waste of potentiel for trying to spice up things through a lot mot combinations. Honestly, what’s the point of trying out a slow starting dwarf team while you can get a one-turn victory with gobelins?.. Just for the fact, I’m not ever using a gobelins team, this is just cowardly and it would spoil the fun far too much.

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Precisely! I guess some units are better early/mid game but the fact that they no longer are useful at high level considerably limit the options to create competitive teams. If you have only 50 units to tinker with, no wonder you get always the same teams in PvP… That’s why I believe a system to change traits or even stats, depending on your style, on your stats, on your opponents even, might give a second wind to underused units. Of course they won’t all be useful in the end but it would probably inspire great changes in a game that I feel has’t changed much over this year.

I know I’m using the word “competitive” a lot but well… If you are to farm, you’ll seek a team to win fast with as less as possible risk of losing. You don’t have time to spend 5 minutes for a fight against a team for a guild event (except for GW).

True that, but Gray King is underused because the AI uses it “randomly”. And to be honest, just to get back to what I wrote just before, it’s a powerful but “slow” unit. I usually win my PvP fights in between 1 and 1:30 minutes, but the average is higher with Gray King. Safe but slow…

In the end, I’ll have to do some thinking about how to enjoy PvP again, be it with a new mode, parameters or something else…

I like your ideas, but just a heads up that Salty mentioned in the past that really long feedback posts tend to be harder to present to the devs. You may want to create a brief summary of your ideas at the end of the opening post.

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Hi @blindnighto,

I’m putting on a straw hat, taking a pickaxe and… ready to farm! Ok not funny. Just like PvP isn’t for the both of us the way it is now.

Honestly, I think that the end game should rather be “how you enjoy what you have built over with patience”. It’s time to test your skills, to reep the rewards of your investment. Sure, farming is part of almost any game, it’s just that the “balance” crumbles when you just do it without any real goal, any real reward and that it takes so much time that it’s already a new day before you finish your “dailies”. At least it is for me.

Well, i’m not a revolutionnary, those are just ideas thrown in for the sake of opening minds (though I kinda like most of them…). Take a different way to play (change the size of the grid and / or of the team, create “super gems”, create “events on board”, etc.) and you might just get things spicy again. The limit is how thoses changes won’t add a “bad randomness” that just generates frustration when luck plays a way stronger part in victory or defeat than strategy… Arena is terribly overboring in my opinion. You can’t select a team with synergy, it’s super slow, super unrewarding. Most of my guildmates prefer to spend gems in oder to skip it during campains…

I understand your joy after conquering pure faction at level 500. I do have some too (around 10). But it’s not the type of challenge I’m seeking. Just putting level 500 units is a “fake” challenge in the sense that i don’t get the feeling of a real achievement for being good at strategy, nor do i have fun defeating them. Just raising levels isn’t the right way to make a challenge as I see it.

I like the way you bend over the boredom to seek what’s behind. I like to see the teams I devised victorious in fair battles, turning theory to reality. I like finding a way to beat a challenge when it relies mainly on strategy rather than on luck. I’d like a way to be rewarded for using teams that are “durable”, not “explosive”. For instance, if rewards were based more on the units you defeat than on some kinda “bonus” at the end of the match, then a growing “hoard” of monster with growing levels might trigger another way of thinking in building teams. How do you build a sustainable team capable of facing growing opponents, that would make a nice worldwide challenge (maybe with some leagues depending on your level for the sake of fairness).

To be honest, it’s commonly known that people keep in mind negative emotions like frustration way longer that positive emotions. This is also why some “meta teams” really build up that frustration with one turn wins or crazy luck based victories (infinite loop I can never make even though I’m not the AI…).

As I replied to Sytro, I do believe it’s hard to balance freedom and restrictions to make things “fair” and enjoyable. If you have too little freedom in devising your teams, it’s totally pointless. So rather than forcing people, incentives would be nice, though of course if what you incentive people on is boring, it won’t change much of anything… Maybe a “colour of the week” or “type of unit of the week” but not too much restrictions at once.

New ways to experience the game while making it more worthwile is really what i’m after. Just repeating dailies won’t cut it for eternity!

2 Likes

I like farming. I like achievable collection goals, even if they will take me many months. what I don’t like is being forced to play one mode only (explore in my case, because I don’t need gold, traitstones, class xp, pets or anything other than medals! - and writs or deeds, but can’t really farm those anyway)
Please let me chose my preferred play mode and then exchange the earned currency for something (medals, writs) that an end gamer actually needs.

3 Likes

I think I missed some of this in your original post so thank you for clearing that up.

Yes, it would be interesting to have variety. A team that wins in PvP will probably win in Explore and win in delves. A specific color or combination of colors will always default to specific troops as the “best” picks. So some variety would be nice, if it forced it on both sides. Obviously, farming would still be an option to those dedicated/unbothered enough to do it, but having another mode that explores other team combinations could be fun.

Some suggestions:

  • A mode where a specific color never drops
  • A survival mode (this would be similar to delves but would be endless with randomized and increasing difficulty enemies, with bragging rights to those who survive the longest)
  • A cooperative guild mode where everyone shares a map (like Tower of Doom) but enemies defeated by one person count for the whole guild.
  • A switcheroo mode where you start with a draft (like arena) but can switch out your team for troops that you’ve defeated.
  • I wasn’t here when Home Kingdom meant something besides tributes but it would be interesting if that because a thing again.

But I agree with @Noctis on this. If this was meant to be a discussion, then we’re on the right track. However, if this was meant to be a feature request, it should be culled down to bare essentials.

That’s an interesting idea. I don’t believe it clashes with the type of changes I ask. If you like “collection”, then maybe offering a reward among several types when you complete one would get you this sense of achievement (though basically the “reward” for that is upgrading your kingdoms…).

I like collections but I feel empty if the designed process to get it is meaningless / boring, all the more if the rewards aren’t even enticing. Just like you wrote, it’s not about gold or traitsones at this point…

Well, you can win but fighting in PvP and in explore at level 150 of doing delves at level 500 require different teams if you wish to be efficient. For instance, gobelins are good in PvP but it will take way longer to beat a level 150 explore team than with a Zuul’Goth team for instance. The “risk” in PvE is completely different than in PvP.

Well, of course farming is part of the game. It’s just that rather than multiplying unrewarding guild events or campains with 0 interest, I’d prefer to choose what I dedicate myself to! Plus, I like better when playing is for myself. As they are now, guild events are just chores i play out of sense of duty. I’ll add some of your ideas to the initial post to expand even more the new ways to keep players entertained.

Well this is my first post, designed after I planned on sending a feedback mail to the devs… I added a synthesis of the changes requested, as @Noctis suggested, but I still feel like they need a detailed context explaining their purpose and how i see them in practice.

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I thoroughly agree with everything Khaldras has noted. The game is starting to become very monotonous after playing for a few years. The world event is the worst - there is no linear path with the same team appearing sometimes 5 times on a round. Each time I play the event, I feel I’m swimming against a current blindfolded…

On another note, I would like to complain about the VIP rewards. As someone who has plied hundred of pounds into your pockets of the years, all I get in return are a couple of traitstones and 500 gold coins as a reward. And the shop is a joke…99 dollars for 1,500 gems!!! Please reconsider the rewards for VIP keys.

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I’ve thought the same thing for a long time. It would be a nice reward for completing the level 500 pure faction run if max renown allowed access to level 20 with no multiplier nerf for farming.

I would gladly take 1 or 2 glory here in lieu of the useless additional class XP, at least it would be something. Otherwise it does feel like a waste to you them after that.

You have a lot of good points in general. The points about the class skills and weapon affixes have been touched on many times. There is a lot of feedback stating what needs to be fixed on them very similar to yours. At this point it is just a matter of whether the devs decide they want to take the time to address those design issues or keep ignoring them.