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Mostly simple class change suggestions so that an Elemental, Wargare, and Construct hero class may exist

Currently, three hero classes do not exist in the game: Elemental, Wargare, and Construct Class.

I’m going to reference this chart in regards to classes/ troop type/ and talents.

Some of the other hero classes have extra representation, including 3 Elves, 3 Daemon, 2 Dwarf, 2 Fey, 2 Undead and 2 Giant. With that much leeway, its rather unnecessary for 3 main class types to be left out (not counting Gnomes, Boss, Doom etc.). I think I got all of the repeated typings, but if I left any out, apologies in advance.

Talent usages:

5 Water
5 Chaos
5 Shadow
5 Stone
6 Arcane
6 Cunning
6 Death
6 Fire
6 Forest
6 Knowledge
6 Life
6 Light
6 War
7 Guardian
7 Morale
7 Storms
7 Wind

It would be very hard to get an equal representation across the board, but this is pretty close. In that case though, some of the 7s have room to be adjusted and 5s could use more uses.

The three missing troop types do have matching Talent Tree level 100 skills.

Storms: Lord of Storms: Elementals gain 1 Magic when an ally casts a spell.
Forest: Harvest Moon: All Wargare Allies gain 2 Life every turn.
Knowledge: All constructs gain 10 Life.

So, how do we start this rebalance?

I feel like Wargare would be the easiest to adjust.

Out of the 21 Wargare in the game:
12 Maugrim Woods
5 Wild Plains
1 Sword Edge
1 Blackhawk
1 Guardians
1 Leonis Empire

With so many Wargare in Maugrim Woods, it makes sense to make Maugrim Woods the Wargare class.

That also means replacing the 1 Beast class in the game. That’s fine. Let’s move it. What’s our choices?

Using gowdb.com handy dandy troop + type + kingdom filtering, we have Beasts in these kingdoms:

7 Forest of Thorns
7 Glacial Peaks
8 Maugrim Woods

If we give Maugrim Woods to Wargare, then we can have a cold chilly Beast hero replacing an extra Fey or a Thorny Prick in Forest of Thorns replacing an extra Elf.

Suggestion 1: Switch Maugrim Woods/Warden hero class to Wargare, change the 3rd trait to Warden (you can keep the class name and 3rd trait name). Give it something like Gain a Barrier when matching Green Gems (the hero version of Totem Guardian). I don’t really care.

Switch Forest of Thorns/Archer hero class to Beast (sorry Elves, at least you have 2 other classes and King Avelorn). Traits can stay the same. Replace the Wind Talent tree with Chaos Talent tree or Stone Talent tree (both used 5 times). Stone talent tree gets a mention for Elementals though.

We have Forest/Water, Forest/Shadow. As much as I’d find Forest/Stone/Cunning funny and extremely good on Archer (Monk level of power), I think it would be more thematic for Beasts to be Chaos. Either is fine.

Class 1 solved.

The construct approach

The obvious answer is give The Guardians Kingdom Constructs lol. Oh well.

The other answer is that there is 4 Constructs in Karakoth. There is 5 in Whitehelm, but 4 are faction troops. That doesn’t really count…

The upside? Karakoth is one of three Daemon hero classes and has an underpowered 3rd trait. Perfect opportunity to fix it. The hero weapon is already the Daemonomicon, which can already be explained away as constructing things. (the weapon still needs a buff)

The Sorcerer already has Knowledge, Shadow, and Chaos, so it doesn’t need to be adjusted to have Master Builder.

Suggestion 2: Change Sorcerer to a Construct hero class. Change the hero name to Puppeteer (or something more Construct-like). Talents are surprisingly fine. Change the 3rd trait to be Construct themed. Something like All Constructs reduce damage from Spells by 50% or Explode a Gem at the start of every turn.

Class 2 solved. Very little effort needed, actually.

All that remains is the popular troop type Elemental

This one is a mess, but the solution is mostly obvious.

11 Elementals in Broken Spire
11 Elementals + 4 Faction troops in Forest of Thorns
9 Elementals in Drifting Sands
8 Elementals + 4 Faction troops in Stormheim

For reasons listed above, FoT isn’t a choice. Stormheim would be a choice, but it already has the popular Titan class. No reason to change that. Drifting Sands is an ideal place for Monster, so that’s not a good one.

Broken Spire is the best place for an Elemental Hero due to being the 2nd Giant class. (It can never get a 50% start because Titan has the trait! lol). I actually assumed Broken Spire would have changed to Elemental when Sheggra and a few others were type-shifted to include the Elemental sub-type.

The problem now is that the hero class is currently Warlord and isn’t very Elemental thematically. (War, Fire, Morale). Slayer already has War and Fire, so Warlord can be scrapped completely. Warlord also doesn’t have a good 3rd trait, it needs a complete do-over.

First, it needs to obtain the Storms trait to get the Elemental effect.
Fire is a thematically very elemental so Warlord can keep that.

The 3rd choice is tough and has 2 good choices.

I think the best fit thematically globally would be the Water talent which only has 5 uses. However. Water/Fire already exists with Sunspear and Water/Storms with Frostmage. However, Fire/Storm is a unique combination and Water would tie the other 2 nicely together. (Snap Freeze/Insulated or Fireproof/10 doesn’t matter/Storm Aura or Firestarter/Deluge/Lightning Strike/Fire Blade). An Elemental mage of Fire, Ice, and Lightning.

Stone/Storms/Fire is a possible choice and would be the Earth side of elements. It would also fit the image of Broken Spire well, but wouldn’t fit in as many places that are Elemental base. I’m sure Rock Solid + Lightning Strike + Fire Blade would be popular, but would be very similar in being Titan hero class (Stone/Storms). Still a typing I’m sure people would appreciate. (Impact/ Fireproof/ 10 doesn’t matter/ Storm Aura or Firestarter/ Rock Solid/Lightning Strike/ Fire Blade)

Suggestion 3: Change Warlord to an Elemental hero class. The name can stay. Change the talent trees to be Fire/Storms/Water or Fire/Storms/Stone. Change 2nd trait from Frenzy to Arcane. Change 3rd trait to something interesting. This one I have no real suggestion. I think the player base would love you forever if the Stone class variant got Entangle, Freeze, and Burn the First Enemy on Skull Hit. Entangle all enemies on 4/5 gem match would be a great fit for the Fire/Storms/Water variant.

The Cleanup

With the removal of Warlord’s Morale, that talent tree has been evened out. We added a Storms to the Elemental class, so we ideally need to take it off a different class or it might be overly represented. War is now under represented at 5.

War 5, Storms 8

I think the best place to take Storms off of is Barbarian and replace it with the Shadow tree which only has 5 uses.

Disclaimer: Sorry Chunky.

Orcs are typically warlike forest dwellers that’ll surround their targets in the Shadows and beat them to a bloody pulp. They’re supposed to be vicious and vile and often backstab anything that moves for more power.

The Shadow Talent Tree will allow the hero to be Stealthy like Shade of Zorn and Barbarically get a Rising Shadow kill. Kind of like an Assassin, only more Bloodthirsty. This also gives the Barbarian a chance to not be in the first slot and still be helpful. Or it can be a nasty first slot stealthy troop, which would set it apart from other first slot heroes. Orbweaver with Forest/Shadow exists, but its not built to be a first slot.

I’ve suggested a location for Water, Stone, Chaos, and Shadow. I don’t know what gets used where (if it ever does), so I don’t know what’s left over. All I know now is that War is at 5. I could leave it at that and be done with the topic, but lets find a home for it and even it out.

I dropped Wind to 6 with Archer, I removed Morale off Warlord to drop it to 6. All that is left is 7 Storms and 7 Guardian.

I’d suggest taking Storms off Deathknight. I love Lightning Strike as much as anyone else, but Storms talent tree is not really doing much here outside of that. This gives a chance for the Guardian/War combination which actually doesn’t exist currently which would make for a strong first slot troop combination. The 3rd trait doesn’t actually do anything that a “Deathknight” would do.

Suggestion 4: Replace the Storms Talent tree on Barbarian for Shadow Talent tree.

Suggestion 5: Replace the Storms Talent tree on Deathknight for War Talent tree. Change 1st trait Undead Bond to Undying. Change 2nd trait Warded to Ice Armor (a tanky Deathknight). Change 3rd trait from Death Curse to something rewarding from player action, like Death Coil: Death Mark all enemies when an enemy dies.

That should clean up everything that I’ve touched.

I genuinely think this would open up a few more viable hero classes worth more contention.

Barbarian would be stronger
Deathknight would be stronger
Elemental class would exist and be strong
Wargare class would exist and be familiar
New Beast class would be familiar and be a bit stronger.
Construct class would exist and could be made interesting.

Hopefully, someone enjoys this useless rant.

Edit 1: Removed name change for Elemental/Warlord so that the hero class quest text doesn’t need to be renamed/rewritten.

43 Likes

Act like a statue.

Hero: What?

Stand still.

Hero: Like this?

No talking!

Hero:…

Do you feel like a statue yet?

Hero:…

Good, you have mastered the art of construct.

Hero:…

17 Likes

I feel like somewhere between 5.0 and 6.0, this needs to happen. Kind of annoying that we don’t have those classes already.

4 Likes

Vile? I’m straight-up loveable.

I can see you put a lot of thought and effort into your presentation. Well played. It all makes sense to me.

All that is left to do now is medal all your Common Troops. Build an army worthy of Grosh-Nak, and whatnot.

As for me, I’ve got delves to do. Feeling good, on a Tuesday. Back to work. Zug zug.

3 Likes

Wow, one of my spreadsheets actually gets some use out of it. And here I thought I was just pointlessly making them to… well, make them :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

Here’s another list for you IdleOne, in case you want to reference specific talents…

Talent Tree Level Talent Name Description
Arcane 1 Magical Shield All Purple allies gain 2 Armor.
Arcane 5 Mage Lord Gain 2 Magic if in last position.
Arcane 10 Anti-Magic Sphere Reduce damage from Spells by 20%.
Arcane 20 Mana Source Start battles with 50% Mana.
Arcane 40 Antiquity Gain 4 Magic when using Artifacts.
Arcane 70 Arcane Surge Gain bonus Purple Mana from Purple Gem matches.
Arcane 100 Mystic Channel All Mystics gain 2 Magic and Life when an enemy dies.
Chaos 1 Daemonic Rage All Daemons gain 1 Attack.
Chaos 5 Dark Hunger Steal 1 Life from the first enemy when matching Purple Gems.
Chaos 10 Plaguebearer Disease a random enemy on 4 or 5 Gem matches.
Chaos 20 Spawn of Hell 50% chance to summon a Hellspawn when an enemy dies.
Chaos 40 Sudden Doom Create a Doomstorm at the start of battle.
Chaos 70 Delirium Gain 2 Magic and Attack when I take damage to Life.
Chaos 100 Chaos Wave All enemies lose 1 point on a random skill when I match Skulls.
Cunning 1 Hunt Hunter’s Mark a random enemy on 4 or 5 of a kind.
Cunning 5 Knife Throwing Gain 2 Magic if using a Dagger.
Cunning 10 Light Fingers Gain 5 Gold every turn.
Cunning 20 Backup 35% chance to summon a Bandit when an ally dies.
Cunning 40 Goblin Friend All Goblins gain 2 Attack.
Cunning 70 Dodge 30% chance to dodge Skull damage.
Cunning 100 Thieves’ Guild All Rogues gain 1 Magic on 4 or 5 of a kind.
Death 1 Reaper Gain 2 Magic if using a Scythe.
Death 5 Chill of Death When an enemy dies, Freeze another random enemy.
Death 10 Soul Caller Gain 1 Soul every turn.
Death 20 Icy Veil Create an icestorm at the start of a battle.
Death 40 Life Siphon Steal 2 Life from the first enemy on 4 or 5 Gem matches.
Death 70 Swift Curse Death Mark a random enemy at the start of battle.
Death 100 Unholy Blessing All Undead gain 2 Armor and Magic when an ally dies.
Fire 1 Feline Fury All Raksha gain 1 Attack and Life.
Fire 5 Fireproof Immunity to Burning and Faerie Fire.
Fire 10 Up in Flames Burn a random enemy when an ally dies.
Fire 20 Firestarter Create a firestorm at the start of a battle.
Fire 40 Gift of Fire All Red Allies gain 1 Magic.
Fire 70 Firebringer Gain bonus Red Mana from Red Gem matches.
Fire 100 Fireblade Deal triple Skull damage to burning enemies.
Forest 1 Haunted Weave Web a random enemy when I summon a troop.
Forest 5 Perfect Aim Gain 2 Magic if using a Bow.
Forest 10 Root Trap Entangle the first enemy at the start of battle.
Forest 20 Nature’s Aura Create a leafstorm at the start of a battle.
Forest 40 Wall of Vines All Green allies gain 5 Armor.
Forest 70 Elven Sentries All Elves gain 1 Magic and Attack at the start of a battle.
Forest 100 Harvest Moon All Wargare Allies gain 2 Life every turn.
Guardian 1 Stone Wall All Brown allies gain 2 Armor.
Guardian 5 Protector Gain 3 Magic if using a Shield.
Guardian 10 Vanguard Gain Barrier at the start of battle.
Guardian 20 Razor Armor Add 20% of Armor to Skull Damage.
Guardian 40 Savior When an ally dies, Barrier another random ally.
Guardian 70 Banishment Dispel all enemies on 4 or 5 Gem matches.
Guardian 100 Armor Plating All Mech Allies gain 2 Armor per turn.
Knowledge 1 Serendipity Give a random ally a random status effect.
Knowledge 5 Well-Read Gain 3 Magic if using a Tome.
Knowledge 10 Golem Protector 20% chance to summon an Ancient Golem when I take damage to Life.
Knowledge 20 Tactician Gain 3 Magic at the start of a battle.
Knowledge 40 Mentor All allies gain 1 Magic.
Knowledge 70 Tree of Knowledge Gain Enchant when matching Green Gems.
Knowledge 100 Master Builder All constructs gain 10 Life.
Life 1 Resilience Gain 8 Life.
Life 5 Purification Cleanse myself on 4 or 5 Gem matches.
Life 10 Fast Healing Recover 2 Life every turn.
Life 20 Fey Vengeance Faerie Fire a random enemy when an Ally dies.
Life 40 Healing Herb Gain 4 Life when matching Green Gems.
Life 70 Nature’s Will Gain bonus Green Mana from Green Gem matches.
Life 100 Eternal Summer All Fey Allies gain 2 Life every turn.
Light 1 Shining Staff Gain 2 Magic if using a Staff.
Light 5 Leading Light Gain 10 Armor if in first position.
Light 10 Brilliant Aura All allies gain 2 life on 4 or 5 Gem matches.
Light 20 Dawn’s Aura Create a lightstorm at the start of a battle.
Light 40 Armor of Light All troops gain 4 Armor.
Light 70 Lightbringer Gain bonus Yellow Mana from Yellow Gem matches.
Light 100 Divinity All Divine Allies gain 2 Life every turn.
Morale 1 Exemplar Gain 5 Attack in PvP.
Morale 5 Resplendence Gain 2 Magic if using Jewellery.
Morale 10 Royal Armoy All ally Knights gain 2 Armor.
Morale 20 Quick Study Gain 10% bonus XP from battle.
Morale 40 Commander Gain 2 to all Skills if in first position.
Morale 70 Inspiration All Allies start battle with 15% Mana.
Morale 100 Urska Major All Urska Allies gain 1 Attack every turn.
Shadow 1 Gloom All Purple allies gain 2 Life.
Shadow 5 Shadow Scales All Naga Allies gain 1 Armor every turn.
Shadow 10 Shadows’ Call 20% chance to summon a Sister of Shadows when an enemy dies.
Shadow 20 Dusk’s Aura Create a darkstorm at the start of a battle.
Shadow 40 Stealthy Cannot be targeted by spells (unless there are no other targets).
Shadow 70 Dark Venom Poison a random Enemy when matching purple Gems.
Shadow 100 Rising Shadows 7% chance to assassinate the last enemy when another enemy dies.
Stone 1 Impact Inflict Stun when enemies deal Skull damage to me.
Stone 5 Hammer Mastery Gain 2 Magic if using a Hammer.
Stone 10 Stone Circle All Brown Allies gain 3 Armor.
Stone 20 Dwarven Armor Gain 4 Armor for each Dwarven ally.
Stone 40 Rock Solid Gain a Barrier when matching Brown Gems.
Stone 70 Stone Mastery Gain bonus Brown Mana from Brown Gem matches.
Stone 100 Fortitude Immune to Stun, Poison, Disease, Death Mark and Devour.
Storms 1 Chaos Storm Summon a random storm on 4 or 5 Gem matches.
Storms 5 Mace of Power Gain 2 Magic if using a Mace.
Storms 10 Thunder Fist All Yellow Allies gain 1 Magic.
Storms 20 Storm Aura Create a duststorm at the start of a battle.
Storms 40 Titanic Surge All Giant Allies gain 1 Life and Magic.
Storms 70 Lightning Strike Explode 1 Yellow Gem on 4 or 5 Gem matches.
Storms 100 Lord of Storms Elementals gain 1 Magic when an ally casts a spell.
War 1 Ferocity Gain 4 Attack.
War 5 Counterattack Gain 2 attack when I take damage.
War 10 Axes of Doom Gain 3 Magic is using an Axe.
War 20 Blood and Glory Gain 1 Glory in PvP Battles.
War 40 Vengeance Gain 3 Attack when an enemy dies.
War 70 Bloodthirsty Become enraged on 4 or 5 Gem matches.
War 100 Bull General All Tauros Allies gain 1 Attack every turn.
Water 1 Snap Freeze Freeze a random enemy at the start of battle.
Water 5 Insulated Immunity to Frozen.
Water 10 Ocean’s Trident Gain 3 Magic if using a Polearm.
Water 20 Watery Binding All Blue Allies gain 4 Life.
Water 40 Deluge Submerge a random ally on 4 or 5 Gem matches.
Water 70 Water Mastery Gain bonus Blue Mana from Blue Gem matches.
Water 100 Aquatic Glory All Merfolk allies gain 2 Magic when an enemy dies.
Wind 1 Wind Shield Gain 8 Armor.
Wind 5 Precision Gain 2 Magic if using a Missile.
Wind 10 Wind Speed All Yellow Allies start battle with 10% Mana.
Wind 20 Celestial Currents All Centaur allies gain 1 Magic.
Wind 40 Gale Force All Yellow allies gain 2 Attack.
Wind 70 Child of Sky 25% chance to summon a Heronath when an ally casts a spell.
Wind 100 Stryx Commander All Stryx allies gain 1 Attack every turn.
12 Likes

@igniteice can you make it like this? :relaxed: :pray: :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

Arcane
Talent Tree Level Talent Name Description
Arcane 1 Magical Shield All Purple allies gain 2 Armor.
Arcane 5 Mage Lord Gain 2 Magic if in last position.
Arcane 10 Anti-Magic Sphere Reduce damage from Spells by 20%.
Arcane 20 Mana Source Start battles with 50% Mana.
Arcane 40 Antiquity Gain 4 Magic when using Artifacts.
Arcane 70 Arcane Surge Gain bonus Purple Mana from Purple Gem matches.
Arcane 100 Mystic Channel All Mystics gain 2 Magic and Life when an enemy dies.
Chaos
Talent Tree Level Talent Name Description
Chaos 1 Daemonic Rage All Daemons gain 1 Attack.
Chaos 5 Dark Hunger Steal 1 Life from the first enemy when matching Purple Gems.
Chaos 10 Plaguebearer Disease a random enemy on 4 or 5 Gem matches.
Chaos 20 Spawn of Hell 50% chance to summon a Hellspawn when an enemy dies.
Chaos 40 Sudden Doom Create a Doomstorm at the start of battle.
Chaos 70 Delirium Gain 2 Magic and Attack when I take damage to Life.
Chaos 100 Chaos Wave All enemies lose 1 point on a random skill when I match Skulls.

etc.

I love how this thread had 16+ likes before anyone felt the need to comment, and when they did, it wasn’t to disagree. Well reasoned and worked through, I thought.

2 Likes

@igniteice thank you for that Talent Tree breakdown!

It’s funny, I did a similar analysis on hero typing a little while ago, came up with the same conclusions for Wargare, Elemental, and Construct reassignments. For beast, I nixed Forest of Thorns because the elven archer is such a classic archetype it would be weird to lose it. Instead, I think Zhul’Kari should be reassigned to beast, since that is supposed to be the Spider kingdom after all. Of course, that would be a more radical change to the meta, and would perhaps require retyping some troops in the kingdom. But thematically it made the most sense.

Redoing talents in addition to hero typing, wow, biting off a lot here. How 'bout deleting and replacing the morale and wind trees altogether? While I occasionally use a talent or two from these trees, they seem to be by far the worst trees in the game, and automatically diminish the odds of their classes being of any use.

2 Likes

While I would love to suggest that, I’d assume it would take far longer to change and balance those new talent trees to account for every other hero class in the game.

yeah, Wind and Morale drastically need changes, but it stops being simple at that point.

1 Like

Its just a name in the end though, which is why I’m not overly hurt on leaving an Elemental hero as a Warlord. You would just have to Nicholas Cage it and think of it as the Lord of War. Its not the best name for an Elemental hero, but if it means not paying for translation fees to fix text in quest lines to keep it simple, I’m ok with it.

Archer’s 3 traits sound pretty good for beasts in my opinion. “Nature Heart” “Fast” “Bullseye” . Archer can still apply as a name for a Beast hero, if you treat the hero similar to a Beastmaster that hunts with a bow, like Beastmaster Torbern.

Orbweaver isn’t a bad choice for Beast, but with only 5 Beasts in the kingdom and being spider based, you’d have to change way more of the kingdom to be more Beast oriented. Zhul’Kari spiders are all over the place typing-wise.

1 Like

Your reasoning isn’t bad, and Archer having 2 talent trees overlapping with Warden would make the switch even more seamless. Between that and the changes that would need to happen for Zhul’Kari, no doubt your solution would require less work.

It’s just that the beasts in FoT are low-rarity and forgettable, whereas the spiders are what define Zhul’Kari. Even though they went out of their way to not type some of the troops there as beasts (Arachnaean Weaver and Webspinner being egregious), the class and the most distinctive troops strike me as being beast-oriented. Making Webspinner dual-typed as beast would be more intuitive than saying a kingdom without a single beast mythic or legendary is the beast kingdom.

2 Likes

This is the best written and most logical request I have seen here in the 4+ years I have played GOW. It would be a shame if this class rebalance does not happen by the end of 2020.

The world needs a win this year. :pray:

4 Likes

@Kafka, are there any planned changes after the 5.0 update for the Hero classes?

1 Like

Easier suggestion: Make Faction Hero Classes. The more the merrier.

I’m probably in the minority, but I’d rather they keep the hero out of the pure faction teams. The fact that you can’t use the hero on the pure faction teams is about the only thing that keeps delving unique from all the other scaling content in the game.

1 Like

They should just throw all talent trees out the window and give every class unique trees to choose from.
Would open up the classes and make them more usable if they weren’t all overlapping.
There is infinite possibilities in options for trees, so why have them all share so much?

1 Like

I hate to say it, but its probably too much effort for them to do it.

34 classes multiplied by however many unique trees created…

In an ideal world, yeah… that’d be awesome.

A thought that crossed my mind at one point was giving each Talent a cost (in Class/Champion points), possibly limiting the trees each class can choose from, and then letting people pick whichever Talents they want using their points however they feel is most effective.

That way you could scrimp and save and get both Lightning Strike AND Banishment!!! Or similar. And skip any lame/boring Talents you don’t want (with the points saved from those being able to be used towards more fun Talents).

3 Likes

@Jonathan
Bad idea.
It would end up with people having 2-3 meta builds and kill all variety from the game…
At least the existing classes right now, can’t have everthing. If you are tanky like sentinel, you lack some mana/mana generation to go with.
If you go resilent like Monk, you have a lot of mana, but your tankines isn’t that great.
If you’re stealthy, you wont get fortitude (because shadows and stone don’t come together) etc.

there are some limitations in current system, which prevent classes from being OP,
ofc there are few that are quite useless and could get a rework (fe. Oracle )

oh sorry, I’ll delete my post

1 Like