4.4 Update Preview Discussion

Excellent summary by @Lyrian here:

I caught pieces of the stream, and went back to check relevant parts of it myself. Heres my opinions on the stuff that was previewed.

Login Screen
Looks good. Less clicking to get through is a huge bonus. All for it.

Adventure Board
This is probably the change that disappointed me the most. You better believe we will be checking the claims about it giving “about the same” rewards when it goes live, but thats not even what I want to focus on here.

I’m talking specifically about the loss of daily tasks. Don’t really care about snotstone events (except for the obvious associated rewards). Those weren’t really interesting to begin with, nor did they ever reward anything that was actually fun.

Click here for Rant

For me, a huge part of my daily interaction with Gems of War is finding an efficient way to get through these daily tasks. Do I try to do as many as possible and have a weak team that has to do content that won’t be profitable? Do I use a slower not PvP viable team or two faster PvP viable ones?
Should I set up my daily task run in whatever event is going on? Over half my saved teams are formed with some sort of daily task in mind to be viable or fast for a given piece of content, and many can be tweaked to cover another task or 2 while losing a bit of efficacy or speed. I even have some farm delves set up with teams that appear frequently on the task list. On alts, I have to make adjustments for not having a certain troop and it matters a lot more in many cases where a troop would otherwise be “bad”.

This is honestly where most of my “fun” in Gems of War has come from for a good while now. Part of the reason I have four accounts is all the different ways I am forced to approach these tasks, and so I generally have more than I would care to do in any given time stretch, because even the big guild events have started to blend together despite the huge disparites in collections and stats, the “best” still tends to be the “best”. Sure, theres a lot of garbage tasks in here, which are either insta-repick or just skip for the day as they have higher opportunity costs than potential rewards for near 100% of the playerbase, but that doesn’t seem to have been completely addressed with this new tasks system, judging by what was previewed and the fact that it is stated that which tasks appear are random.

We are taking all this interesting stuff that rewards team building, maybe trotting out that mythic I wouldn’t have otherwise because it covers more colors and thats what my task needed, and approaching stuff from different angles to get this done, and replacing it with, basically, a bunch of mini-pet rescues. Flat, on rails, walls of stats that doesn’t reward experimentation, with nothing to really optimize so long as whatever PvP team you have already built can take it out, and it looks like thats how it will be set up. It is just more daily content that you can just approach the same exact way nearly every time, and while there is a random pool, I’m sure it won’t be long before we’ve hit the bottom of the depths of said pool. I see this getting very old very quickly.

It feels like my interaction with these daily tasks is me desperately grasping at some kind of variety that is in any way rewarded by the game and therefore appeals to my desire to be efficient and this new system slaps it away with a “no, you WILL do it this way”. Yes, I know I can still force variety by using any team I want, but that is not the same thing as being actively rewarded, however small, for it. This didn’t need additional structure. Disappointment is the only way I can describe this.

Team Management
Cool. Wish they hadn’t moved where the sort by button is (I always have this on Base Rarity as my saved filter) but I can deal with it. Suggested teams is nice, if it actually suggests some semi-competent combinations.

Troop Roles
No idea why the system was restricted to a single role. This screams being able to use roles as tags, applying an arbitrary amount to a troop, especially since they are condensed to a small symbol displayed next to the troop type. Most good troops cover more than one role, and their assigment seems arbitrary.

One thought that kept repeating through my head was that if they actually went through every single troop in the game and manually tagged them to set this feature up, it would have been an egregious waste of development time. For once, I actually hope they were auto-generated.

Boost Ratios
We’ve been wanting this for a while. I’d say the implementation here is a bit lacking, but any “better” solution I can think of increases the complexity by quite a bit, this is ok I guess.

Epic Battles
More ways for lower level players to put their sigils to use. Yay.

Also more ways for less experienced players to mismanage their sigils instead of learning how to properly teambuild. Quick math shows that, because of valravens, if you use 2x sigils the entire time, you’ll end up with about a third of the number of plays you would otherwise. If you use 3x sigils, you’ll be cut to under a fifth of your normal plays. I have a feeling this is going to lead to more mismanagement and waste than actually allowing any walls to be broken.

Can’t be used with the delve event, only with events where 1 sigil = 1 battle, which is probably the only place I’d actually want to use it. Even on my intentionally low stat account, I’ve never really reached a point where I say “I sure wish I had a bunch more stats so I could clear the next battle”, so I’m ambivalent otherwise. Might make a few battles slightly faster if I’m just trying to burn sigils at the end of the week or something.

Drop Rates Shown In-Game
Appears to be missing an entire decimal place of resolution, in some cases, drastically altering the reported drop rate from prior data (event keys 0.11% displayed rather than 0.104% for mythics and Glory Keys 0.01% displayed drop rate for mythics instead of 0.014% are the worst examples).

This screen doesn’t note that event keys have an increased chance to drop the glory pack troop. This doesn’t skew rarity chance, but drops within that rarity is skewed to the glory pack troop, so I guess the rates are still technically correct in those cases, but its still omitted information.

Unsure if it actually uses live data or not to get the drop rates. Doesn’t display whether or not a troop is actually in chests. These are the two of the biggest reasons people wanted drop rates shown, to insulate themselves against drop table mistakes and be able to check if something is in chests when it should be.

Without these, this is not a good replacement for the “old, inaccurate” chest data mined by Taransworld (and kept in a neatly formatted way, with historical data).

Flash Offer Calendar
Cool, I guess. Lets see whats on them first, and whether or not they are resource traps.

Bug Fixes
Always nice to see some of those.

Other
The worst outlying issues the games have that have been controversial several patch cycles have not been addressed in any way (no level 500 delve faction team solutions, no old weapons reappearing, no PvP point solutions or even matchmaking fixes). While I understand this is decided ahead of time, I think the development cycle needs a way to make “course corrections” as they notice a smaller issue become larger and larger and larger (as with old weapons, as this has really been an “issue” for almost as long as the game has existed, but only became a “problem” in the last 18 months or so, and never needed to get that far since soulforge already exists).

As always, final judgement reserved for after the patch lands, but so far it is pretty hard to get past my disappointment at losing daily tasks, one of the few variety incentives the game actually has (and also likely an economy nerf but shhhh).

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Thank you for this. Maybe Lyya or another mod can move some of the posts in the Streaming thread here, to keep that other one, well, streamlined.

I also have reservations about the new event system. One thing in its favor, at least, is that only one task is retained after daily reset. So even if the tasks themselves are a bit more tedious, there is a higher turnover in the less desirable ones.

Also, what was shown in the stream as potential rewards? The devs have mentioned elsewhere that the tasks were designed to keep the average gem reward constant, but I am very curious what gem values get assigned to things like gold, souls, or traitstones.

I didn’t watch the stream. But I’m assuming Salty used her low level account on it. Where she needs souls and TS. I hope, like current daily tasks, that only applies to those players at that progression of the game. Those who have all the troops fully leveled and traited shouldn’t see any TS or souls rewards.
Personally, I think it will only hurt those with alt accounts. I don’t have 10 minutes to play on those accounts. I have a minute to upgrade a troop to get a task completed on a daily basis. But maybe that was the intent? Not so much alts, but super casual players who really didn’t have to actively play to get some sort of rewards.

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Mod levelling :face_with_hand_over_mouth: I Must say what’s the point of the stream then

Why is this game is the only game where mod do streams without going or mentioning the upcoming patches

The disappointing part to me is leaning on “we plan several cycles in advance” as the reason why the big issues called out haven’t been addressed.

Most of these issues are past a year old now. If not, they’re close. How far does the dev team really plan ahead? At some point ahead in time, it’s unreasonable to say you’re committed and can’t change. If you’re working on things today that are going to cost you dearly 2 years from now if you deviate, the F2P model isn’t for you. Make pay-to-play games if you want 5-year plans.

This is especially fishy for Delve. I’m pretty sure it’s approaching a year old, and when it released I remember discussion that the devs would be watching it and making tweaks.

At least E3 shows me the companies who do listen to fans who want things for years. I’m planning on spending more on Nintendo this year than I’ve spent in my GoW career. That will probably be true of time, also. I can’t stop talking to my friends about the games that are coming and they haven’t even had their conference yet. I stopped talking about GoW with my friends who aren’t already playing a year ago, and the reasons I stopped still persist.

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Thank you so much for the notes @Lyrian and @Mithran

I understand not needing to set an easy defense anymore to help others with disappearing Snotstone/Weekly Event.
However another reason for easy defense is still to increase chance of Revenge battles, Yes?And keep pvp score low if you’re one of those lovable cpvp trophy hunters :wink:

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There’s not much to discuss tbh imo, crappy updates are crappy.

At start thought that “epimythical battles” was nice, mainly thinking at the lvl 500 faction run that “you” do at the end of the new faction event but seen you cant use that osom feature (totally useless everywhere else, even more cuz, look at the coincidence, only work on events where tier 7 cost 500 gems lol) doubt i will ever use that crap.

Like potions (dont take me wrong i LOVE potions but since they are around i see ppls always spend more than actually required) the “allmighty battles” will just be an incentive for ppls to go nuts on buying tiers.

About the daily task “rework” we gotta see, but the fact that they putted the “supermegauseful and precious” minor traistones in the prizes isnt promising, sure, some of the actual tasks area pain (like the “win 25 pvp battles” when you’ve already reached 1900+ score) and the fact that new adventures only take 3/4 battles is nice, but then, if i gotta do them for minor traistones more likely is 1 more thing i will happily skip, at least the “pain” one give gems now.

All the rest (sorting troops, boost ratio) may be useful for newbies, or totally useless (chest chances? just write “low as ****” on all lol) and that is.

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I am definitely worried about this as well. Still, since I am (Champion) leveling my Hero, I still do them all to this day, and I occasionally replace one trivial task and hope for a better one.

I hope that the 4.5 Update will have Campaign replayability, and the possibility of getting all the missed old Event weapons that we are unable to get at this time.

If we don’t get it by then, I’ll think I’ll drop the ball on this game and move on.

I’ll reserve my judgement until it’s released, but I am never hopeful
But I am already disappointed that delves aren’t being addressed, as I remember a dev posting that it was going to be in “the next major update”

I haven’t seen the stream, did they use the term “gem equivalent” in any way when talking about the rewards? Snotstone events are currently worth roughly 100 gems, daily tasks roughly 150 gems over the whole week. I’d really hate to get 2 minor green orbs (worth 100 gems each) and 10 minor traitstones (worth 5 gems each) instead.

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I’m super disappointed by this update. The current daily task system is my favorite part of the game, and it sounds like they are scrapping it for something far less interesting.

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Exactly. It may be a downgrade with the lesser income returns which defeats the purpose of Daily Tasks.

If something is not profitable enough, I’ll skip and ignore.

The question that remains is when was the last time we had something not disappointing. I know for fact that they not listening to their player base :mask: Shame of Zorn is latest proof with so many others

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Yes, I kind of agree with you. I am not unreasonable, but they showed their true colors now.

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Well, I tried to not talk about this yet, but it seems to be a big focus of concern. Too be expected, I suppose.

They used very non-commital language along the lines of “over time, its roughly the same amount of gems, but it can be more” which isn’t a lot of information. But the term “gem value” was not used here, it was clearly “gems”.

I’m reserving judgement for the economy angle of this until I see exactly what it offers. The 15 gem cost to skip a tutorial task that gives significantly less than that in rewards is a bit concerning, as is the fact that the previewed “legendary” adventure battle giving about as many chaos shards as a single delve farming run (and much less other rewards, while likely taking about as much time). But yeah, if gem tasks are rare enough that we see them at most every other day we are going to have to give like 100 gems each to even come close to just the raw gems handed out by the system it is replacing, not counting to mention the other collection-building resources (gem keys, event keys).

While the lower rarity tasks were very clearly stated clearly aimed at lower level players, I heard no indication that these tasks will favor more difficult/higher rarity stuff for here levels, but apparently they do refresh every day if you don’t complete them, so you can at least ignore the low value ones. The top (tutorial) task slot stays over days and will be replaced with a “kill task” for “veteran” players, which did not have its rewards or its requirements previewed. Depending on how heavily they followed the structure of the old tutorial tasks, this will be at around level 200, and everyone past level 200 will have the same pool, only now the lower levels will have fewer stuff they can complete and the higher levels might have a higher incidence of stuff they don’t care about.

Worth pointing out here that 6k gold for 3 battles, provided this reward doesn’t scale with armor and personal bonuses, even relatively easy ones would only be “good” during roughly the first 50 levels or so, and have a higher opportunity cost than generic PvP battles by about level 200, or about the first month of casual play. The souls one looked like at least an average amount of souls for the amount of effort put forth (as opposed to the blanket far far below average amount of souls for every single task reward that gave souls in the current system, except “level a troop”), but would likely still lose to dedicated farming with Pharos, unless, again, they scaled with personal bonuses. Chaos shards I feel like they severely lowballed, but this is also a “new” way to obtain them. Id say they need to dial that in, but we all know that won’t happen.

Really the thing that irritates me most about any potential economy nerf is how they try to hide them or intentionally misrepresent how things are going forward… even when they are nerfs by proxy (like the whole Tower of Doom gives more gem rewards fiasco). I hope this time they have done their due diligence and these claims can be backed up with hard data, but I’ve been around long enough to know that it probably wont, and thats just how they operate, people will be visibly upset for a while and then the issue will die out. It still stings for me. Every. Single. Time. And every single time brings back how I felt every single other time they did it, and there are a lot of them to reflect on.

Even though now, I should be beyond caring about it:

image

But we still don’t know how bad any potential nerfs here are.

What we do know is that daily tasks are going bye-bye, and that is something I can say will significantly negatively impact how I interact with the game, regardless of the rewards associated with the new system. All the different overlaps you can have to try to build a viable team and different content you could use to complete these tasks having my dynamically interacting with the game is being replaced by something that checks for a pulse and exchanges x of my time for y prize. Thanks, I hate it.

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If any one haven’t figured this one out.
It’s a battle against the End Gamers that have everything and the Devs. The publisher or what ever. They dont give a rats ars about the new players. They made a big mistake in the past. Where there was a paradise for gems. Easy too collect. And the future new players are suffering for it now. Just too gems sink the endgamers.
I say stope your war against the endgamers.
Cos u never gonna gem sink them. And if the day comes that they u do. There wont be no new players anymore. Start and make it easy for the new players. and Forget about the endgamers existence

So when’s the 4.4.5 update preview? I think we’re already done with this update.

These posts were copied over from the streaming thread to avoid filling that up with non-stream discussion.

I read Salty’s comment here as support of what Lyrian wrote above: while the average amount of gems awarded may be similar, the variance will go up (that’s the only way you can have larger max payouts while keeping the expectation the same). And, thus, the low end of the rewards will have to be either lower or more frequent.

Which brings us back to the point mentioned during the beta. I, at least, don’t care for this kind of rewards system. The fact that the devs continue to pursue rewards structured like this—after the original Dungeons, and Treasure Gnomes, and Orbs, and…—says that someone does. Whether that someone is players (which would put me in a minority here), the devs, or publishers (who are preying on player psychology), I cannot say.

I guess I don’t like the implications of the update starting with “these changes are controversial”.

What’s the point of beta testers if, as we’ve seen now:

  • They don’t get to test the bulk of new features.
  • Their feedback is not valued.

Is it just to say you made a token effort and get some feel-good points?

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