Since Web might arguably belong to the category of the weakest status effects, I’ve been wondering how it could be improved / redesigned to fit the meta, and feel rewarding.
“Webbed troops will fail their first ability cast. 10% cumulative chance to cleanse each turn. Web ends if an ability is successfully negated.”
It perfectly fits the theme of Web in a sense it catches the 1st ability cast. Which means preventing summon, drain, heal or barrier given… - abilities will have no effect and mana of the troop would reset to zero.
It means at some cases, you might decide to tear the web by sacrificing the ability (if you have a gem transforming or exploding troop ready to cast to fill the caster back up), or you’ll have to cleanse it, or simply wait till it goes away.
Troops that can cast only once would still regain the chance to cast it again.
i dont like this suggestion because i would not want my great maw to fail if i am webbed, but i have to say the idea is good. specially with that part of cleanse on successful negate
Edit: and the cast only once being able to cast again would keep it from being overpowered
I don’t like this suggestion. Web is perfectly designed.
I am not keen on this suggestion, as:
- it feels complicated, both to code and for newer players to deal with
- it feels like a temporary and far less good Silence
I agree that Web is currently a largely useless effect.
Solutions to this would be:
- making it more common, and making a lot more synergies / bonus trigger from it
- possibly upgrading its effect, though I don’t have many thoughts right now on that
I ageee with the premise that web should act like the spell version of entangle.
Currently it is a relatively hard to apply effect due to a low number of troops, mostly confined to Zhul Kari, utilising it. Because of this, my only experience with it has been through the on skull hit trait on webspinner/Dark maiden. I have found it useful, good to see a bat only 3 or so damage. But agree it does nothing against the other parts of spells that don’t rely on magic stat. If it was changed it would become a silence +1.
Though the difference would be that a webbed target would still be able to gain mana, unlike a silenced troop.
More troops should have it, I think before we can assess whether the reduce magic needs to be upped to denying spell casting fully.
The thing is, we don’t really have any “negation” to spells. Entangle negates skulls completely. Web, however, ignores vast majority of the today’s-used troops. And just as new skulls can be found on board, so can the mana be refilled.
The thing about web is … That it has a potential to be “the thing” to counter strong spells, but with lots of counter-measures. Currently, it ignores the main mechanics of Psion, Famine, Death, Kerberos, Forest Guardian, Tesla, Mana burns (mab) … I mean … It just misses the point to exist in a game, not to mention you are severely gated by non-meta troops to use it. And early game (low magic values), where you might consider using the mechanic for lack of troops - you don’t see any effect at all. You’ll probably save like … 5 HP if you’re lucky.
@DonBoba If I might address your opinion specifically, you said:[quote=“DonBoba, post:3, topic:25362, full:true”]
I don’t like this suggestion. Web is perfectly designed.
Could you please share with us why do you like it in its current functionality, and when was the last time you used it, or felt rewarding for countering it? I believe it would bring more light (at least for me) to understand why people like it in its current state.
I use it in guild war on green days. I put dark maiden on top and like her web on skull damage very much.
I also used spider totem hero weapon multiple times in past - very nice weapon.
Your suggestion is just silence. That’s all. I like web in a form it is. 0 magic hurts magic damage dealers a lot. Not every stat effect needs to break the game.
The reason noone uses Web is not that it is bad, it is because Web is rare and the very few troops that have spells with targetable Web are meh at best.
That being said, there are troops that just s**t on the magic-based spelldamage concept in a big way and these should be looked at.
I think that the real issue with web is that damagers don’t just damage, but also do something else.
For example krys? Sure theres a lot of damage to be prevented with web krys still can summon. Crimson webbed? A lot of damage prevented, but crimson still gains 16 life.
Emperor Khorvash? Still drains and stuns 2 of your top troops.
Famine? Still drains everyone and deals more damage based on mana drained.
So web is good as it is, stuff that make web less effective are effects that go with spell damage.
i think it would be safe to add web to much more units since web doesnt effectively block the spell, as @DonBoba mentioned
but if web is meant to be a rare effect then i would prefer to take the “1cast fail” suggestion as then i would prefer the spells “side effects” be also blocked
Well Webs purpose is to prevent damage of spells, so i don’t mind it not countering additional spell effects, for those other counters are in the game.
What i do mind are the several cases where Web also doesn’t do much against the damage of spells because certain troops just don’t give a damn about their magic.
A few interesting additions to Web that we have considered in here at some stages were (obviously not BOTH 1 & 2 at the same time though):
- Webbed troops do not cleanse naturally (so once you’re webbed, you STAY webbed unless a Cleanse spell is cast at you - you also stay burning, frozen, diseased, etc… so it makes ALL status effects work like poison)
- Webbed troops have only half the chance to cleanse naturally.
- Webbed troops cannot accept positive status effects (Barrier, Enchanted, + the new ones on the way)
[Edit - almost forgot these ones!]
- Status effects have double effect on webbed troops (except for silence, entangle, & frozen which have static effects)
- Webbed troops cannot be buffed or healed
didnt you consider heal negation to be rather added to poison or even desease?
would fit much more thematically
what would that mean to death mark?
also if web is not suppose to block spells side effects then perhaps we need another debuff (or two) that would do that?
Diziness - Spells you cast do not apply status effects
Impotent - Spells you cast cannot manipulate/create gems
Why not just merge Web and Entangle? There’s no thematic change needed (you can be tangled in vines exactly the same as you can be tangled in an unnaturally-magical spider web); the effects are similar (stat temporarily reduced to 0, just two stats now instead of one); it makes Entangle suddenly meaningful on any unit instead of just the top of the stack; it doesn’t require new one-off rules that make Web work differently than other debuffs.
I like 1 and 4. Sadly burn and poison are too week at later scale that even doubling them wont have any effect.
However i think @Amadan has excelent point. Why not merge them and make out of both a stronger stat effect with their combined effects?
And i think @Annaerith is 100% right that diseased troops should not be able to gain HP until it passes or is cleansed
I like em all. Especially 1 and 3
I really like these ideas. I’d prefer 1 over 2, since most current effects self-cleanse over time, so this would be unique. For 3-5, doing them all makes web pretty useful, and makes it pretty easy to understand (“no good stuff will work, bad stuff is twice as bad”).
- Why ALL status? Only Web and maybe Burn should be like Poison. Because an unlimited Frozen/Entangle could be too much powerful (ie it will force players to have a cleaner)…
- It will be difficult to see/remember the difference with other status in-game.
- It depends of the new ones but it seems too light.
- So in this case, the enemy should at least two status which seems rare.
- Interesting but it could be strong in few battles but invisible in all the others.
So I prefer 1.
I thought that this topic was talking about the website…
@DonBoba Thank you for sharing your insights. It is of help =)
@Sirrian It is a delightful moment to know Web is being looked at.
I like them - especially the longer duration ones. While not being too powerful, and still being able to be countered with cleanse - it gives some powerful choices and synergy for veterans (especially, death mark).
Doubling the effects would, in my opinion, be too powerful at low levels and still weak later on. Except Death mark would just skyrocket. That wouldn’t probably help things.
Depending on new positive status effects… If Attack is concerned - Web would only be a weaker version of entangle again. I think buff and heal prevention do not fit thematically. Poison/Disease would be the ones to go with.
I can’t help myself, but to think that Web thematically fits the theme of “stickiness / catching”. Which means status effects caught in Web stay longer - or … The Web could “catch=negate” the first cleanse, both natural or ability-based, and then give the chance for other status effects to be cleansed.
[details=Responses to original idea]
Since some of you were saying that the new suggestion was nothing but weaker version of silence (even though you could still gain mana, or waste it, unlike silence)… How do you not consider its current state a one, as well?
Currently it either reduces the effect of the cast, or has no noticeable effect at all (if the cast has modifiers). So the obvious use (if any) is to see the enemy “waste” the spell, at least partially.
The suggestion was to improve its current state into wasting the ability completely.
I do not mean it in any strange way, I just want you to help me understand. [/details]
Thank you all for the contribution! This has been a nice thread so far.
From now, I guess we can discuss the more possible ideas Sirrian has mentioned.