Single Troop Defenses

Heh im surprised @luther didnt give a like to the post where i said i may well quit GoW

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Hes such a good boy! :blush:

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I think that the dev has been very clear in his second post: the only problem with that was that they were not making money like they use too and all other reasons are just not really important.

The thing is that they don’t even understand that for the 1st time in GW history they actually obliged every one to do something. Not the way you want to start a day when you want customer’s money.

Good luck finding loyals paying customers with that king of attitude of obliging us to do something without a care of what we thinks.

From now on I won’t spend a cent in that game.

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Hey, since you started behaving better you aren’t that bad :wink:

Back on Topic, i was in a top 5 guild, and 90% of my battles were against Famine decks, with payouts of 800-900 gold. Not Joking.
The best payouts were for 1100-1200ish for the same decks but of maximized players.
Really really BOORING.

I am now in a much lower guild, with much lower lvl statues, and guess what? 90% of my battles give 1500-1600 gold. For fighting the same decks.

The problem here is that when you start playing you can see those awesome 1900-2000 gold battles, the more you go forward, the harder is to make gold each week.

For sure Single Troop defenses were a way not only to not see those maxed decks, and fight against a larger variety of decks, but to Break the monotony.

What is dumb is the whole system, as the stronger you become, the more frustrating becomes the game, generating a flux of leaving players, which sadly, don’t even write on the forum, @Vangor, and sadly, many many players have left over time for this very mechanic, which forces long time players to spend more time in game than new players, for the very same results.

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Yeah, likes can be tough to communicate in this game. I can see how really frustrated you, and many others, are so I’ve thrown you a couple likes, because its good for the developers to understand the underlying issue.

It doesn’t seem like you hate one team defenses going away, but the extremely boring match making and rewards based on the static team scores.

There’s an old adage in golf. “Take a week off then quit!” I hope you’re not there yet, but I really understand how annoying PvP has become.

With GW defense teams being set from our normal defense teams, I can’t even leave a fun defense up. I have to figure out what my meta defense is for the next day, and set it, then once GWs starts, I can set individual defenses and put a variety defense back up for normal PvP.

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Just ran into this and i complained about it and ragequit over it earlier cuz i didnt scout before i started… This time i did so here we go…

Notice the team score for the 1t fight vs the 3t fight? Well maybe the famine is the only good card and not traited… Lets see
Um… Ok lets check traits shall we?
Ok… Now im confused… Well that 3t fight must be out of the world crazy…

I absolutely love this game but i really dont understand this. I really wish i could figure it out because this kind of thing is the problem here not 1td…

I dont mind a challenge and in fact i love it which is why i have been so outspoken in defense of GW when ppl complained about the “coin flip” nature of it. I sided with the HW is good because it is SUPPOSED to be hard! That is what makes it awesome imho

My point is i would fight that 1t fight all day every day (or any variation of it) and all the meta cheese toast teams ppl can come up with but i feel the rewards should be equal to the challenge. Kind of a “let the punishment fit the crime” thing but in reverse.

But this👆 is not a fitting reward for this fight and even if it was the rewards for the 3t it wouldnt be worth the effort.

All im saying is if the rewards were equal to the effort i wouldnt use 1td anyway because it is wicked boring to fight elsbeth 1000000000 times a day i would rather have a challenge. Hell if i wanted easy i would play goddamn farmvile

Tl;dr if the rewards fit the effort involved than 1td wouldnt even be a thing

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I got a theory on why late game is so less rewarding:

Guild Statue Masteries.

As statues reach their cap for stat bonuses, the only thing that you get more is mastery levels.
Masteries follow a curve with diminishing returns, but i got the sensation that the game values those hundreds of mastery levels (which are equivalent to like just +5% of real gain) much more than their real return.
This deflates the gold returns in late game, for something that isn’t really a thing.

So basically you have a deck with masteries on 200-300 fighting vs a deck with masteries on 100, even if the advantage is just a few % points of mana surge, the system values them like they were a lots of stat points.

On the other hand, a deck with the same stats of another deck, but from a lower mastery level point of view, would fight that deck with a really good payout , without having to fight something really different.

A possible solution would be raising the gold payout generally, and dramatically lower the mastery levels influence on the overall gold payout.

This way both the higher ranked guilds and lower ranked ones would see better payouts than we have currently, lessening the need to “game” the system by using exploit in defence decks.

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The solution to this is quite simple; do not consider the strength of the attacker’s defensive force in determining pvp points. You only consider the strength of the defending force. That also requires a better method of determining strengths than there is now. I’ll get back to that. The pvp points worth would be a function of the difference between the strength score and the threshold. Next the 3 trophy battle is always against someone who has a line-up over a given threshold while the 1 trophy battle is always against someone below a given threshold. The thresholds can vary based on player level (somewhat higher for 1000+ level players versus 100 level players) and on pvp tier (higher as you approach tier 1).

Strengths should be based on rarity of the troop, active traits, and total magic, attack, armor and health each troop starts with in battle after banner, troop line-up (e.g. bonuses based on 3 or 4 of a type of troop), GW and kingdom’s bonuses are applied. So a fully traited, mythic, leveled troops for someone who has nearly all their kingdoms level 10 and 7 stars will be above the strength of someone who has the same lineup, but only has a few kingdoms at 5 stars. Also certain capabilities like devour, true damage, damage to 2 or all opponents etc would be worth bonus strength. That way the strength score actually reflects to a more accurate degree the battle strength of the force.

It is abundantly clear that these score mismatches are because the game calculates the team score based on the 1TD, then corrects its mistake and replaces the team with a randomly selected one.


Suggestion

Assumption: the code that calculates gold payouts is server-side, i.e. easily changeable.

  1. Save the base XP awarded from the match, before armor/GW/etc. bonuses.
  2. Multiply by 1.5 and subtract from 54. If number is negative, it becomes 0.
  3. Players earn that % less gold, glory, souls, and XP from their match. (Traitstones are too discrete to deal with this way. Sorry!)

Edit for numbers: From what I can tell, each troop killed in awards 9 XP. That’s 36 for a full team of four, before any bonuses. If a player fields a 1TD, my approach awards [100 - (54 - 9*1.5)]%, or just 59.5% of the rewards. A 2TD increases that to 73%, 3TD nets you 86.5%, and 4+ earns the full 100% of stated rewards.

This penalizes players who fight 1TDs, which will hopefully result in players avoiding those matches. This, in turn penalizes the players setting the 1TDs by giving them fewer revenge opportunities.

Problem: there is no in-game way to communicate this change, so a lot of players who don’t read these forums will be confused by the drop in rewards. On the other hand, they’re probably already confused by the multi-mythic 5400-point defense teams they now see.

Wait up, hold the phone, stop the presses and let me see if I understand this.

End game players with fully ascended, traited level 20 teams (team scores of 9.5k) think that they deserve the same amount of gold as a mid-game (team scores of 7.5-8.5k) player for invading fully ascended and traited level 20 defense teams?

because that is the gist of what I’m getting from a few of these posts.

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You are missing the main point. An end game player, right now, can change guild and go to one with lower level statues, and he will see back the 1500-1600 gold battles.

Being an end game player doesn’t have any effect, it’s the guild statues that are making the big difference.

Also, fighting over and over end game decks for 800 gold isn’t that rewarding nor rational. And you get those values even if you aren’t an end game player, like i am not, it’s just the guild you are in that sets this massive difference in payouts.

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i agree. i tested this. i tried being in a new guild with no mastery. huge drop of mastery by points, significant drop of pvp rating. but the percentage of mana surge drop is very small, it was unnoticeable in battle. the gold and pvp points payout increased a lot.

i didn’t have the extra stats from guild task too at that time. so it may contribute as well. but it didn’t make much different at endgame.

the mastery diminishing returns is screwing up with things.

if only i can get enough people to disband and join a newly created guild every week. that would have been nice.

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that’s exactly the point.

I went from a guild with hundreds of levels in masteries to one that has low level statues, my Mana Surge changed by 4-5%. Barely perceivable ingame.

Instead seeing those 1500-1600 battles have motivated me to play a lot more.

Btw. i would advice Everyone to avoid using 1 deck or 4 low level card decks right now, due to the bugged fix. You would end up doing less gold for figthing the same things as you had a leveled deck on defense.

But endgame players:

  1. Don’t need as much gold because A.) their kingdoms are all leveled, and B.)they have fully ascended common/uncommon troops.

  2. Get more gold from hourly tributes so don’t need as much per fight as players of lower power level.

However, to get players to play as many fights at endgame as lower power level players (who need more gold and get less from other sources) they need to get less gold per battle.

So I guess what’s confusing me is why you think you need all that extra gold?

ok ive read all sides of the arguement so let me sum it up for everyone

  • you can still run lower strength teams to fight easier battles
  • yes they should find a way to make meta teams less used
  • i used the elspeth defense for the gold (not ashamed)

just like everyone else on my side im upset they changed defense team to be minimum 4 in the way that they did it. they could have just as easily made you put 4 troops in the slot instead of whatever random troops they wanted to put in, which leads to a 4400 strength team to be 4 mythics level 20.

if you want to avoid meta teams put 4 weak troops up it will change the strength of teams you fight. also at the same time shame on the devs for poorly handling this issue

edit: also if anyone is curious im level 1060 and i was getting the extra gold to help with tasks since im in a brand new guild helping new players get their feet on the ground

since i’ve played longer, i should get less rewards for the same activity as a newer person? makes sense… :neutral_face:

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It’s not the same activity though. A player of lower power level has to chew through more health and armor with less attack and magic (and health and armor) than you.

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  • Kingdoms are not the mid-game.
    They are early-starting phase of the game.
    that phase ends in 2-3 weeks of active gameplay.

  • mid-game is starring the kingdoms, which doesn’t require gold, but souls and traitstones.

  • The main sinkhole for gold in the game is NOT the kingdoms, it’s the Legendary tasks. being each one 1 million gold, the more you make, the more rewards you get. 1 million isn’t exactly easy to do, and may require days of farming.
    Farming for 1500 gold a battle is much different than farming for 800 gold a battle. Making 1 million or making 500k in your guild weekly contribution would be the main difference.

  • Tributes aren’t really a game changer. They are there for FLUFF. i wouldn’t take seriously anyone counting to make their guild contributions via hourly clicking for tributes.

  • Rewarding LESS for doing the same thing isn’t exactly rational. By your thinking, if we would give just 10 gold for each battle to an endgame player he would be eager to play more to make the same gold he used to make. No, he would just quit.

  • Giving Half the gold to endgame players, has generated this kind of exploit (maximizing the time via 1 troop defence) to bypass the low income via gold.

  • I Believe more in Carrots than in Sticks, Carrots benefit activity and entice to more playing, while Sticks in the end just increase players frustration, harming player retention.

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i think you didn’t get the point luther trying to make. the problem is not between all powerful endgame players and humble newer players. the problem is how guild mastery points is calculated into pvp rating. it was a comparison between players of same power level, but in different guild with different guild guardian level.

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i was wondering why i can set the same team up and have almost the same stats on defense, life, attack, and magic but be 1400 strength diff

thanks jeno

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