Legendary task rewards are poor and not worth it. Discuss

[Nephilim]

That’s why we’re so pissed, because if this carries on it won’t be.

[Delinquent]

Oh, I agree, and I think it’s really important that players complain. I’m sure the devs would rather have anger than silence. I just see a rigid unwillingness to look at it from their perspective… to walk in their shoes, so to speak. I also think there are much more fundamental issues with the game that need to be addressed and I don’t think this is ultimately a good use of our bandwidth since it’s very unlikely to change and also not super defensible.

[Ssazix]

Consider that you can open about 3500 gold chests that often give around 100 gems per 1000 opened for the same price as… 2 gem keys, 500 glory, 20 minor brown stones… you would have gotten

Approx 300 gems
approx 300-500 glory
approx 10 of each minor traitstone
A lot of common troops

So maybe they are telling us to drop all our money on gold chests now?

[Stan]

@Nephilim

It was ‘broken’, and I use the term loosely, for maybe -1-2% of the guilds. And that’s highly debatable.

This is why @Strat’s suggestion of continually increasing costs for each Legendary task would have made sense. That way, there would come a point where even the most powerful guilds would say “let’s stop for this week - it isn’t worth it anymore”, while a guild like mine (that might be in a position to do legendary tasks once every few months) might still be encouraged to go for it when we get the chance.

[Nephilim]

Here’s my drop from 10,000 gold chests. It’s nowhere near what you’re saying.
10,000 gold chests gave me…
Gold - 140,960
Glory - 6408
Gems - 158
Souls - 9314

[Delinquent]

I think this has been pretty thoroughly debunked by Mithran:

Instead of LTs what about

So, lets make some projections about just collecting mythics. Legendaries and Runics and Arcanes are goals that are likely to be completed before collecting all mythics if you started post 2.1 (or now post 3.1) because you get them incidentally due to the gigantic amount of keys you have openend and time you have played to achieve this goal if you need to collect retroactively. This, arcanes and runics are effectively zeros toward this goal, as are legendary troops. To do this, I need to defi…

[Ssazix]

@mithran has a point, however, look a bit deeper. Lets looks at what Nephilim said:

@Nephilim

Here’s my drop from 10,000 gold chests. It’s nowhere near what you’re saying.

10,000 gold chests gave me…

Gold - 140,960
Glory - 6408
Gems - 158
Souls - 9314

Compare that to

@Mithran

From the table, for relevant mythic hunting items per LT, we have about:

7.5 glory keys - 0.00075 MPP
2.94 gem keys - 0.00294
1.06 event keys - 0.00106 MPP
103.14 glory - 0.000573 MPP (converted to event keys)
0.01 mythic troops - ~0-0.01 MPP (varies depending on how many you need to collect and how many are in the game)

So 10,000 keys is about 3 LT.
Look at the Gems - I think that is a lower than average but maybe they nerfed the gem payout as well.
GOLD KEYS give you enough gems in 10,000 pulls to buy more than 3 LT pulls worth of event and gem keys!

[Nephilim]

My tributes have been terrible. I bet they’ve nerfed that too.

[beanie42]

@Ssazix

Look at the Gems - I think that is a lower than average but maybe they nerfed the gem payout as well.

The gems @Nephilim is reporting is right in line with the 1% of 1-2 expectation almost perfectly, and is not below average.

@Ssazix

GOLD KEYS give you enough gems in 10,000 pulls to buy more than 3 LT pulls worth of event and gem keys!

Your comparison is flawed because you are comparing an individual reward directly to a group reward without accounting for that. Remember that a big part of the benefit of the LT’s is that they benefit the entire guild, while gold keys only benefit you. Assuming guild members are contributing equally, you would get 30 LT’s for the same amount of gold as each member doing those 10k gold chests. Even if only a handful of members are paying for the bulk of the LT’s they are still a better deal. The math is very clear, and has been discussed in detail in the other thread, but the only advantage gold chests really have is the ability to target specific mythics.

[Stan]

@beanie42

Your comparison is flawed

He’s also comparing only the gem and event keys, while ignoring the runics, arcanes, legendary and mythic troops available through LT’s. If I was in a guild that could complete LT’s, I’d still be on board with doing it.

[Nephilim]

I have stopped stan, just because 4 glory keys, 1 gem and 4 event keys just isn’t worth it. Our pulls are consistently crap. So it’s pointless continuing.

[Mithran]

You’ve chosen to ignore the entire next paragraph of the analysis. For every comparison used, at worst, a person has to put in over 25% of every legendary task’s cost by themselves for gold keys to be a viable substitute and only over that mark. For example, in a 10 LT guild with 500k min, and have put in 3 million weekly by yourself. The 2.5 mil you have put in to LTs so far had greater value going to those LTs, no matter what. If your entire guild stops there, then you can put further gold toward gold keys and they would be “better” - terrible exchange rate for time spent, by the way. In reality, if you can continue to get the entire rest of the guild to put in at least 3 gold for every 1 you put in, legendary tasks will continue to be better. Again, as a bottom cap. Most people would have to be putting in half of every legendary task or more, by themselves, before they could even consider gold keys to be better.

Using gold keys instead is shooting yourself in the foot long term. Not only will your personal rewards will be lower from that gold, you also demotivate others to put their gold in, and then everyone gets less rewards. Plus, the exchange rates on gold keys has you grinding PvP (if you can get 250k per hour and 360 glory) over 150-180 hours to reach an MPP of 1.0.

[efh313]

@Nephilim

4 glory keys, 1 gem and 4 event keys just isn’t worth it. Our pulls are consistently crap. So it’s pointless continuing.

And this proves my point:

120 glory keys
30 gem keys
120 event keys

IS worth it, but nobody sees it that way. They only see 4,1,4.

EDIT: I realized my “point” was in another thread-

Some upcoming Gems of War changes (including more gems!)

This is the ONLY argument remaining that LTs in their current state are STILL valuable. You aren’t dropping 1 mil on 1 gem key, but on 30 gem keys! The problem with this argument/defense is that it assumes the generosity of the individual. MOST players were willing to be generous when they SAW VALUE in the LT for THEM. End of the day if a player doesn’t find personal value they will not purchase, resulting in LTs that are not being completed and a run on the Gold Chest store!

[Stan]

I get what you’re saying.

Our guild is doing a push week next week so some new players can get the “team synergy” trophy. Last time we did this, we had enough leftover gold to do a few legendaries and that was the only time in 6 months that we’ve done them. This time, I don’t know if we’ll bother or not, since any gold we spend there is gold we won’t have the following week to do basic tasks.

[Mithran]

Again, you also can’t take the numbers in a vacuum. You are paying in a certain amount, and you get a certain set of rewards, then also 29 people get the same set of rewards (nontransferrable). What matters is the total percentage, on average, of each task you are shouldering. That is what you “pay” for a legendary task in any given situation. For it to equal 33,333, everyone has to donate exactly equal amounts. For it to be one mil, you have to be literally the only one putting money toward LTs. Both assumptions are equally ridiculous. If you are below or at the median of your guild, you are paying less and absolutely there is no discussion here, there is no way gold keys can be better in any given scenario. If you are above (the numbers I examined), you have to be really far above before they can even be considered to be better, and only above that threshold, and only speaking personally and without taking how your action may affect others’ motivations into account.

Or as I said in my other thread, there is simply no real-world scenario I can think of where gold keys are better.

[Stan]

@efh313

IS worth it, but nobody sees it that way.

I wouldn’t turn my nose up at anything at this point, and for guilds that make enough gold to consistently finish basic tasks and do legendaries, I would keep doing it. For my guild, the choice is to go for a couple legendary tasks in our push week or save our excess gold once we max out the regular tasks and save the rest to do more basic tasks the following week. That’s a tougher choice to me, but I think the ROI on the basic tasks is still generally better than the new legendary tasks (even discounting the stat bonuses which we are paying for but not receiving on level 12 and the crummy returns on high level purple and brown).

If @Mithran has a gut feel on my situation, I wouldn’t mind hearing it, though I don’t have enough information on how much gold we’ll have to do any real analysis.

[warcin]

I wish I could have convinced my guild that. I seemed to be the only one that was saying legendaries were better that gold keys and everyone argued against me.

[efh313]

@mithran We are talking circles around each other. I am agreeing with you. Having seen the math it is undeniable that an LT can provide more for ALL, but what I am referring to is the psychological reaction of realizing that a million gold was spent by people you have a connection with for the acquisition of 4 glory keys, 1 gem key, and 4 event keys. And this is leading Guilds to consider not doing as many LTs when this never even came up prior to the LT nerf.

@stan If your Guild is going to do a push week and amass a horde when you NEVER usually complete all TASKS, it would be my definite suggestion to save that superfluous gold for the following week’s TASKS. Gold for Gold, you are going to net more for your money via TASKS then LTs. Unless you feel REALLY lucky and think you might get that mythical Mythic drop! (See what I did there?)

[Mithran]

@Stan

For my guild, the choice is to go for a couple legendary tasks in our push week or save our excess gold once we max out the regular tasks and save the rest to do more basic tasks the following week.

This is exactly what we do, what we have been doing for a while now. It depends on how much gold you can get in baseline. Finishing normal tasks consistently is far more important, and should be your primary goal. I keep millions of gold on hands to cover gaps just in case to make sure can close out each week, but we have moved up a bit into LTs and will probably be hitting a few per week now. If people need to push over their baselines just to finish normal tasks, you should be saving for future weeks, untill these can be comfortably and consistently completed. The final level of tasks, where diminishing returns have reached their lowest point on the table, 1 mil will get you more MPP on average, especially with the re balanced tables - 4.5 mil get you 20 gem keys, 10 event keys, 100 gems (est, next week), 2k souls and 160 glory keys. Which is far more MPP/million. LTs have a lot of “filler” for guilds at this level - legendardies and traitstones in particular, that are going to be of value to some and of less value to others, but in general, consistently finishing guild tasks is where you want to be before you consider putting extra gold into LTs.

[Stan]

Thanks - that confirms my gut feel. What is MPP/million?