The developers don’t want you burning off all those old resources that you and I have spent years accumulating. That’s why we keep seeing new currencies added to spend on the newer developments and game modes, as to prevent us veterans from blowing through the content in a day or three and then finding something else to do. The developers want us playing their game on a daily basis as to tilt at these new windmills, and that doesn’t happen as effectively under your proposal.
Give it time, and Dragonite will gradually become more plentiful than it seems now and easier to grab in ways other than a perfect dungeon run or a smattering of rewards from the Campaign. Give it more time and somebody will probably be posting in these spaces how we ought to be able to use Dragonite to buy all sorts of other stuff because it’s piling up in our accounts the way any number of other currencies now do.
For me this is the big one. Don’t add multiple layers of randomness that compound the hell. It’s bad enough setting a randomness in getting the initial currency, but at least that’s something that has been in the game for quite a while such as getting blue orbs to make Orbs of Power for Zuul. At least that’s a proof of playing the game and putting in the time and effort to get the end result.
It’s not like the game would be incapable of determining which dragons you don’t have already and filling in the missing ones (looking at you Path to X Offers that gives a guaranteed mythic you don’t own). Or, just keep it simple and let people choose which Dragon Egg they want to create by having the three colored gems corresponding to each dragon’s mana be part of the crafting recipe , killing two birds (or dragons, heh) with one stone and giving more uses for a currency that gets useless eventually.
The important thing here is that IP2 has retracted poor design decisions in the past due to community reaction. @Jeto, @Kafka, @OminousGMan IP2 made a great decision in the past to reverse the original idea of Heart of Rage and Tarot cards being consumed once used as crafting materials in the Soul Forge. Considering how finnicky they could be to obtain via the Vault, this was an appreciated and pro-consumer change. Removing the randomness of Dragon Eggs by letting people choose which they want to craft, or the game guaranteeing unique eggs for the first 6, would be a similar decision made in the interest of the community that would be equally appreciated.
Some common sense solutions might be to start with max dragonite (for your dungeon level), and have a trap take 20 dragonite away a piece. So even if you hit 2 you still get a respectable amount of dragonite (after the dungeon battles are complete).
Being able to soulforge swap cursed runes for dragonite, and especially power orbs for a large amount of dragonite would be reasonable as well.
The cost of the daily dragonite offer has to come down though, 300 gems a day is just insulting. Sorry but it is.
Also you might want to make sure dragon eggs can’t give dupes. That’s a whole can of worms that hasn’t been opened yet and is going to be extremely frustrating if they can give dupes.
Also in the 0 perfect run camp. I’m not even doing the battles anymore, I just exit out when I hit a trap. I’ll probably stop doing dungeons forever once I get the one perfect run needed for the achievement.
Personally, I would like to see Dungeons be awarded completely differently.
Award a standard amount of Dragonite for completing the 3 dungeons normally.
However, before you enter the three dungeons, you can Deliberately, select a Trap Door (Difficult path) to get a random handicap to get more rewards, or go through the Easy door to receive a Boon, but get less rewards.
Boons and Handicaps would be persistent and accumulate going into the 2nd and 3rd dungeon rooms.
Completing the Dungeon will then give you the choice to Ascend / Descend the Stairs, or continue exploring the same floor for the next round.
I believe a path system would at least let you feel like your exploring a dungeon, rather than just playing a lotto scratch ticket.
This really only works if you can know the contents of each door before opening them (i.e. have a meaningful choice whether to receive the effect or not).
But to play along with this line of thought: if traps = more handicaps = greater rewards, how about the benefit is greater crafting rewards (Jewels/Diamonds/Shards) but less Dragonite? By making these rewards somewhat opposed to each other, this allows players (at any progress level) to tilt the odds towards whatever they need more of individually. I know I’m always short on regular Jewels…
It is worth remembering how this affects your expected value over time, aka. the total Dragonite economy. If you aren’t thinking about this when crafting the idea you can BET hard gems that someone on dev side is (or should be).
After all, keep in mind the statistically 60:30:10 ratio between 2 traps, 1 trap, and perfect run. Yes, springing both traps is twice as common as springing a single trap (which itself is three times as common as a perfect run) so taking this into account here is how the overall economy works:
Current version:
Expected value for a perfect run: (80 Dragonite + 2 per level) * 10%
Expected value for non-perfect runs: zero
Total payout: 8.2 - 12 Dragonite per run
Your idea:
Expected value for Perfect Run: 8.2 - 12 (same as current)
Expected value after single trap: (60 + 2 per level) * 30% = 18 + 0.6 per level = 18.6 - 30 per run
Expected value after both traps: (40 + 2 per level) * 60% = 24 + 1.2 per level = 25.2 - 48 per run
Total payout over time: (8+18+24) + 2 per level = 52 - 90 per run
(wait, let me second guess those calculations)
Since your idea is a subtractive penalty (not multiplicative), we could just evaluate the expected value of the penalty itself:
Perfect Run: -0
Expected value of single trap: -20 * 30% = -6
Expected value of both traps: -40 * 60% = -24
Total expected penalty: -30 Dragonite per run
(82-120) minus 30 is (52-90). Nice!
In other words, your idea is analogous to reducing the Dragonite payout by 30 but also getting Perfect Runs 100% of the time.
BUT here’s the bad news: Notice how (regardless of Dungeon level) there’s a greater expected value FROM springing more traps? You’re ultimately incentivizing players to spring the traps on purpose (which can be guaranteed 100% of the time by always opening all six doors) and as players start realizing this the overall economy will trend towards a constant of:
Total payout over time: 42 - 60 per run
And again, springing traps on purpose isn’t necessarily bad design (i.e. you still get a greater individual payout from NOT springing traps), but context and execution is everything here.
I want to agree, but I double-checked my numbers from a different perspective and they still add up to the same result, so it feels correct? Remember, you are FAR more likely (9:1) to spring traps than not (we have players at 30+ run streaks with zero perfects), so the cumulative payout over time is invariably biased towards that outcome over others.
Phrased another way: If the base payout of a Perfect Run is 80 Dragonite, the maximum penalty from both traps is -40, then defeating all 3 bosses guarantees at least 40 Dragonite per run, right?
Again, not necessarily a bad thing but you may as well restructure the whole payout schedule from the ground up. Like maybe pay out Dragonite per boss instead of all-or-nothing:
1st boss: 1 per level
2nd boss: 1 per level
3rd boss: 20 Dragonite + 30 for each trap NOT revealed
This still yields the same best-case payout as currently, while still preserving an incentive to NOT just open all six doors outright.
I’m getting hung up on the thought process that even though a player may get 0 or 1 traps sprung and found all bosses, you’re suggesting they still spring all of the traps on purpose for some reason. I just don’t see that logic.
We’re still at a stage where more Dragonite = better, then receiving 80 or 60 should still be better than receiving the minimum 40. Door thought process should still matter.
Personally, the economy may as well be increased given that its currently 2 layers of RNG to make progress. The actual collection process for the dragons is a bit rough and people are already getting repeats on the first possible chance. (Meanwhile people that can’t/won’t buy Dragonite for Gems might have only gotten 20 Dragonite so far from the Campaign of all places. Imagine what will happen to them when they get to that crossroad of duplicates)
Since the devs may slightly increase the opportunities in the future to get more Dragonite (like Diamonds where there’s more opportunites, but not really), I don’t see the devs changing the process to obtain the Dragons to be any more easier.
I have yet to get a perfect run, which means I’ve never gotten the bonus dragonite. As such, there is ZERO REASON FOR ME TO DO THE DUNGEON if I hit a trap! Does it look like I need anything else from dungeons?
Yeah, I think I got the causality of it reversed or something. The majority of Dragonite payout would originate from double-trap runs, but that is all.
I never said or implied anything about wanting to hit traps. It would still operate under the same idea that you want to avoid traps. I was more saying that you would start with your full amount of possible dragonite, then your full amount has x amount of dragonite deducted from your total if you hit a trap. Where if you hit 1 or both traps you lost a chunk of your overall total but still get something in the end. The exact amount deducted per trap is obviously up for debate.
I’m not really sure where Stratelier went with the idea. Nothing I suggested would increase/decrease the probability of or incentivize hitting a trap.
These threads keep getting action but they keep focusing on one small problem…there is only 1 real problem…
problems
Bad odds of getting perfect run…the main way to get free Dragonite…
The cost of Dragonite if you spend gems
Duplicate dragons from eggs.
Only one of these problems deserves massive anger…and it’s the last one. I don’t care if they triple the cost…if they took away the random nature of the craft .
