Dawnbringer unbalances Arena


#424

From reading this 400+ long thread it seems the general consensus is to not allow DB to be included in defence teams.
By all means use it in attack at will.

But for all we know there are people that are scared to voice their unpopular opinion and instead are private messaging the devs congratulating them on their stance of keeping DB in Arena.
Similar to the new UI.


#425

Figured I’d give Arena another go. Just one. Maybe I’m being excessive in my new found hatred for it.

Nope. One cast of Dawnbringer and these are the result.
To come back from those I’d need AI cascades :joy:


#426

The thread’s already been over that problem because in the 4 months it’s been running, players have had many of the same thoughts devs are certainly having. Of course, reading all 400+ posts is a big task. Here’s what I think players have concluded with rough estimates of how much agreement I sense. It sort of makes sense in “chapters” of related points.

Chapter 1: What is Arena?

  • Arena is perceived as a “level playing field”.
  • Weapons violate this perception because they are tied to player progression.
  • The “you don’t face hard teams until level 200” solution is unanimously liked. Thank you for this insightful feature!
  • A level-based gate for Dawnbringer has been suggested, but it’s so expensive no level seems appropriate.

Chapter 2: Why is it a problem now?

  • Players felt like Runic Blade was too powerful for Arena before Dawnbringer, but not overwhelmingly so.
  • Dawnbringer is significantly more powerful than Runic Blade.
  • Players feel overwhelmingly that Dawnbringer makes us appreciate Runic Blade as “a fun challenge” by comparison.

Chapter 3: Why is it so much more powerful?

  • Runic Blade threatens domination after 2 activations (24 mana) if and only if each activation can kill a troop. Many mediocre teams can disrupt this plan with a little luck, and most good arena teams can disrupt it without bad luck. Coming back from one activation is common. +10 armor and +10 HP is a bother, but reasonable to whittle away over the 3-5 turns it might take to recharge Runic Blade.
  • Dawnbringer:
    • Completely wipes out lower-level heroes and entire mediocre teams with one activation (20 mana), especially on a team with another AoE troop.
    • Can kill 2-3 troops on the first activation vs. moderately competent teams.
    • Can often wipe even very good arena teams if it reaches 2 activations (40 mana).
    • Full-team barrier is extremely difficult to deal with unless you have specific AoE troops.
  • Many players have suggested retiring from Arena if the draft doesn’t provide key Dawnbringer-killing troops.
  • Most of the old “most powerful weapons” are now considered “use this because it kills Dawnbringer”.
  • The best advice for beating Dawnbringer is “use Dawnbringer”.
  • Over time, more players will have Dawnbringer so we expect to see more Dawnbringer teams.

Chapter 4: What solutions could exist?

  • “Remove Dawnbreaker from Arena entirely”.
    • Very few players are pushing for this.
    • Players who have Dawnbringer will be very angry and want a refund.
    • Players who don’t have Dawnbringer overwhelmingly agree this is unfair to players who do.
  • “Remove Dawnbreaker from defense teams.”
    • A majority of players find this agreeable.
    • Players who have Dawnbringer are majority happy because they can continue to use it.
    • Players who don’t have it are majority happy because they don’t feel overwhelmed by it.
    • Some players like the added challenge of Dawnbringer and won’t be happy.
    • Long-term this could do weird things to the diversity of Arena as a larger percentage of players wield Dawnbringer.
  • “Dawnbringer is only eligible on defense under certain conditions.”
    • No real consensus, there are many possibilities.
  • “Remove weapons from Arena and replace it with some other troop.”
    • Many players are pushing for this.
    • Players who have Dawnbringer majority don’t like it as it lessens the worth of Dawnbringer.
    • Lots of balance questions are raised, the costs of buying teams has to be adjusted, etc.

Chapter 5: Why is it so hard?

Many players believe some of the solutions above are trivial to implement. I have a hunch, as a fellow developer, there are many reasons why even a single-line patch might involve enough work to be worth lots of thought. Elaborate on this. Get a dev to write a blog post detailing the life of a “simple fix” from bug report to post-release verification.

It’s both very interesting and something people like me can link to when someone plays the, “It’s just a simple fix” card. This kind of dev openness helps build relationships with the sensible players. (Though the not-sensible ones can make it a fearsome prospect.)


#427

Respectfully, there is no comparison between the two. That’s like saying that we can’t deal with nuclear proliferation because if we did, nations would just go back to tank warfare.


#428

The Dark Sword has been my only way to win arenas ATM, and that’s when I can fill it first (13 mono color VS tri-colors)


#429

I’m prone to believe that there are players pushing to keep Dawnbringer in Arena in defense. Or at least not unhappy with it.

Are they planning to resell it? :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

It’s a rare when. Also, Dark Sword should be very bad against basically everything else, if it’s like the Stone Sword I forged precisely for Arena and is helped by the Broken banner.


#430

It 1-shot yellow in first spot, basically a Runic Blade or Dawnbringer Hero. And since Dawnbringer teams try to have many yellow troops, it helps.

But it’s not perfect.


#431

Stone Sword does the same with Blue in first place, and should also recharge faster because the banner - that’s always Blue/Brown for all Arena - does help it.
Problem is, it’s very bad if there’s no Blue in first place, and you cannot spy what team you are going to face and so cannot change your weapon accordingly.


#432

Personally that’s how I view the “Oh no I need a Dawnbringer refund” argument. If you had 1,000,000 souls to spend I’m not sure what the heck you want with them back for, you’re beyond needing them. There’s nothing else to really spend them on.

I think it stems more from “people aren’t happy that a 1,000,000 soul item is just bling”. There’s no DB meta in PvP, it’s too slow for Explore… that leaves Arena the only game mode where you feel like you got something for a huge, ridiculous grind. If it exploded some gems, it’d probably see some play. If Hero classes were a little more powerful, it’d probably see some play. Instead it’s just “the best Arena weapon”.

I’ll bet some of the first people to craft DB were super-late-game players with nothing better to spend the souls on anyway. By now we’ve got a lot of people who probably raced for DB before leveling many troops. I feel that 2nd group likely has a lot of buyer’s remorse.

There’s a whole different discussion about what that could mean future bling weapons should do, but right now I think it’s OK to focus on, “Dawnbringer had unintended consequences and now we want to deal with that.”


#433

That isn’t completely true. Dawnbringer (with Titan or Bard class) is very useful during Guild Wars. I have a number of guildmates that clean up with it on corresponding GW days. So, with or without Arena, it is still a useful weapon.


#434

Dawnbringer is still a bling, and we of course are just jealous. Because we haven’t it.
(BTW I think it costs more than one million, you have to forge other costly weapons before and I don’t know if you keep them afterward or you have to destr5oy them to geto DB)

DB is appearing more and more on PVP too, and it’s a good weapon, even if there are better ones for PVP IMHO.

Future bling weapons might be like DB but with rotating colors, or who knows. Problem is, DB-type weapons dont kill everybody with one stroke in PVP, while it makes it unplayable but for the happy few.

(I find Soul of Xathenos a much better weapon for PVP/GW at much lower cost, but I haven’t met it yet.)


#435

It’s 1.3 million after you buy the other weapon/parts. You get to keep them. They aren’t destroyed after making Dawnbringer.


#436

But she’s absolutely right that people kicked up a huge fuss about Runic Blade… little did they know what lay in store for them!

This suggests an easy solution to the “problem” of DawnBringer… the devs just need to introduce and even more powerful weapon… presto, no more 400-post threads whining about how OP DawnBringer is! :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:


#437

If you go back and look at the threads regarding Runic Blade then you’ll be able to see that there really wasn’t that much of a fuse kicked up.
I’ve found three threads. Also, one changes and focus’ on FB :sweat_smile:

But yeah, introduce a stronger weapon and focus will shift again. However the only way something can be more powerful in Arena is to simply have a weapon that kills all troops rather than a lousy 3 troops hah.


#438

If you have dawnbringer in arena, you rarely lose against dawnbringer because you can almost always fill yours faster.

In GW pvp, it’s the barrier against one shot kills that makes it useful.


#439

I disagree. I use DB a lot. Its awesome in arena yes, but it’s also in one of my main PvP invade teams. I’ve even had a rather successful PvP defense team using it. And in GW it’s downright nasty on yellow day both invade & defense (esp if RNG smiles on the team or frowns on the attacker). Something sobering about getting hit with a 50-60 AoE. It occasionally comes out on red day too. It’s not bad in explore but if you have DB you probably have the components for a faster team as well.

It’s definitely not just overpriced bling…though for some I’m sure it’s certainly a status symbol to own it.


#440

I have lost count how many times a combination of DB + Infernus has messed me over in GW. DB is definitely not a Arena-only thing.


#441

I could not disagree more. I use Dawnbringer on all my PvP team plus red, yellow and blue GW days and I’m doing better in GW than I use to. I also fight at least 10 DB a week in GW and at 25% of my PvP fight contain a DB.


#442

farm your souls, get DB :wink:
this thread started on Sept 2017, some should have farmed up souls to get DB


#443

That’s not the point of this discussion, you know.