That’s in line with what I was thinking too, thanks for confirming.
Rereading this, I can’t believe no one named Lady Morana…
Second best tank in game, after gorgotha (mythics like stonehammer&champion of gaard not counted in).
And pretty much deadly, with the right setup.
What are some good setups for her?
Morana’s pretty good for Crypt Keepers faction runs. I just had a hard time seeing a role for her anywhere else when making the original list, given that she doesn’t have any board control and her slow spell does meager damage. She does have that instakill chance on her spell, but that’s going to be unreliable.
As a front troop, her traits are decent (I like the attack stealing, but skull reduction traits are just ok in current competitive modes). Do you use her in scaling content (other delves, perhaps) mostly, or is she viable in pvp?
For example, as a frontline tank in gvg, or in undead/knight raids&nvasions (as i don’t have CoG), or in the red&brown ToDs, as a counter to certain dwarf lineups that are immune to a lot (but not to lethal dmg), etc.
Paired with grave seer and dark troll, it can be more reliable than kerberos builds that some run in pvp, as there’s very little imune troops out there.
I’d say she’s absolutely more useful than the deep king or queen xochi. Maybe even than alderfader (that has same colour/spell type alternatives outside the delves).
You’re kidding, right? Surely?
Nope. Alderfader is meh, with both ishbaala and glaycion out there.
Queen Xochi does nothing that Luna doesn’t, with less dmg and beneficial side effects (since her summon chain got changed pre-release).
The deep king…emperor khorvash on a severe diet…
Meanwhile, how many non-mythic lethal dmg+tank troops are out there, except morana and the crappy executioner?
As someone who doesn’t tackle a ton of scaling content, it’s hard for me to assess how valuable lethal damage is (its low percentage tends to make it unreliable in pvp and GW). I’ll add Lady Morana to the next version of the list in view of your comments.
That said, there’s no way I would value Morana over Xochi or The Deep King.
Xochi is actually quite a bit different from Luna (both are good), as Xochi can generate extra turns and refill her mana on each cast, kind of like a restricted Infernus, if used properly.
The Deep King does a lot more true damage than Khorvash, while providing submerges that are so useful for Merfolk team builds. With his attack
stealingbuffing mechanic, he fills different niches than Khorvash, who’s mainly valued for his stun mechanics.
-1 for Lady Morana from me!
I think you’re getting mixed up!
Morana will go on the contested list for sure, replacing Sledgepaw (who I’m thinking I’ll move to the main list next time).
Kind of rethinking the format, see what you think:
Useful in non-scaling content (faction):
Alderfather (Primal Rift)
Chief Dargon (Fang Moor)
Copycat (Mirrored Halls)
Drowned Sailor (Sunken Fleet)
Ethereal Sentry (Hall of Guardians)
Gargoyle (Hall of Guardians)
Grave Seer (Crypt Keepers)
Harpy Mage (Stonesong Eyrie)
King Gobtruffle (Amanithrax)
Luna (The Warrens)
Necrocorn (Silver Necropolis)
Queen Xochi (Stonesong Eyrie)
The Deep King (Sea of Sorrow)
The Frostfire King (Frostfire Keep)
The Maraji Queen (Sunken Fleet)
The Wendigo (Wild Court)
Vanya Soulmourn (Silver Necropolis)
Water Elemental (Sunken Fleet)
Useful in scaling content only (faction):
Lady Morana (Crypt Keepers)
Sea Witch (Sea of Sorrow)
Silent Sentinel (Hall of Guardians)
Sledgepaw (Dark Pits)
Watch Mother (All-Seeing Eye)
EDIT: Aaand we’re up to date as of Frostfire Keep. Definitely erred on the side of inclusion with some of these, please let me know if you think I went too far.
I would remove Dargon (unless for Irongut boost?) and add the new frost wraith instead
Life steal > attack gain b/c it bypasses armor and skull reduction traits, plus the wraith has better armor
I’ve tried to make Dargon teams in his GW colors but all mine suck. If anyone has a good Dargon team id love to see one
I also think Morana is a great Tank and not just in faction. She has super high skull reduction and steals attack which makes her even tankier.
I also like sledgepaw outside factions. I should post a stupid sledgepaw team. The 5x5 can be very good mana generation and/or good dmg to grab a block of errant doomskulls with no matches. He’s a Giant, so can get half mana from titan and boosts from Hyndla. And Also a wild folk, can half mana from Silenus and boost attack from TWQ, and yellow for Bard boosts also
+1 for necrocorn! another underrated mana gen and source of bless
Edit: what about Wild Knight?? Another really good tank. Also re: Alderfather, unless you want the summons I think his twin, Nimue, is usually the better choice, I like silence more than entangle but I guess father can half mana start too so that’s worthwhile
Be sure to add Frostfire King as a substitute for Queen Mab when you want someone who can freeze and pop barriers with burn and also not be stopped cold by submerge
Thanks for the feedback!
It’s funny, for some reason his official name is “The” Frostfire King.
Re: Dargon, yeah I only include him for potential synergy with the troops who boost based on attack stats: Tauros troops, Ubastet, Gargoyle, and Irongut. He also contributes some mana gen/board control and passive bleed, but I don’t think he’s worth using if you can’t really take advantage of his attack gains. Including him may have been a reach (except for Gargoyle, those other troops have different/better ways of increasing their attack), and I’ll probably take him off the next version of the list, unless somebody lets me know otherwise.
Between the prevalence of doomskulls and the impact hero talent, I don’t think skull reduction is a very big factor in non-scaling content anymore, which is why I’d hesitate to add Frost Wraith or Lady Morana to the non-scaling list. Outside of its durability, Frost Wraith’s spell does ok true damage, but single-target only and the need to be paired with The Frostfire King are pretty limiting. Morana’s damage is pretty terrible for 17 mana cost, and her instakill requires a lot of purple on the board to have any decent chance of success.
Sledgepaw’s main value is his ability to stun and curse a target, setting them up for devour attempts IMO. His skull reduction stinks, as does his third trait. He’s pretty fast though, and if there are ways to capitalize on the status he effects well on non-scaling teams, I could be talked into moving him to the non-scaling list. I just haven’t seen any really effective non-scaling Sledgepaw teams out there.
Pretty much agree that Nimue is better, but Alderfather has some niche use cases where he can be be better.
Funny story, on the Green ToD, I actually used them together to get all the forge scrolls, looping with Forest Guardian. It worked really well, as Alderfather was good for entangling the enemy team and serving as a summoner/backup caster in case Nimue didn’t fill up for whatever reason.
PS: I’ll quote my thoughts on (why I omitted) Wild Knight from the old version of the list:
Wild Knight is the key to delving the faction, but when I thought about it, it’s main value stemmed from beefed up delving stats and the fact that it does hero-like things (e.g. have barrier up on a consistent basis). As such, it doesn’t seem like it will have much value in content where you can use the hero.
most of my thoughts are based on the stupid teams I build which I understand may not be really popular or the “best” compared to meta moon rabbits and such. But I swear all of the stupid teams do work, trying to show some of these stupid troops can be useful, even if not super meta. I always advocate for inclusion just for the sake of trying to expand our collective ideas of how many “good” troops out of 700 there are.
I sincerely do appreciate and thank you for the always-thorough and well thought out reasons for shooting me down . Wild Knight yeah you’re right about I think now. But at least we’ve got the diversity of stupid troops into a conversation, never want to go back to the numbing uniformity of divines-only and other past metas. So:
Wraith can get 4 boosts (half max) from Gray King freeze-all, plus TGK undead magic boosting (maybe makes up for no burn boost?) … but to be fair that’s on a stupid team
Agree. Again, to be fair, the stupid team I used her in relies on NOT casting her spell, ever. Which I thought spoke well to her pure Tankiness, just pure survival. Slow and steady wins the race? If she steals enough attack, even getting stunned isn’t an auto death if enemy is debuffed badly enough to a low atk stat.
I just posted a stupid sledgepaw skull spam team in the stupid thread… but again, stupid…
I also front-lined him with wild queen and a Bard hero in that event week but I don’t remember the full team composition. I guess with potions his third trait became +9, +10 with bard, which was a lot better.
Haha I hate raining on your parade! Still, keep the ideas coming, there’s always room for new discoveries (like the Crimson Bat-TGK-Dervish team I wouldn’t have noticed otherwise).
Re: Morana, that’s a fair point re: her attack stealing. Set her up with a strong enough looping team (preferably with The Gray King, yay stats), and I could see her being effective. Kinda like Elemaugrim, who isn’t “good” in a conventional sense, but is scary to see on a defense that loops well because he can erase your team’s attack stat single-handedly.
Still seems like a lot of work though. At least you can actually cast Frostfire Wraith, whose true damage complements The Gray King. I think I’ll add Wraith to the next list, as he’s one of the best non-hero tanks on TGK teams, and could be useful, at least on scaling content.
As for Sledgepaw, I’ve been meaning to see - how effective is he at generating extra turns when a storm is up? Given how quickly he fills up, I could see him being a strong looping troop with a Stormcaller hero, depending on how generous the skyfall is with yellow on that 5x5 block.
PS: Thinking more on Chief Dargon, he technically does the highest team-wide attack buff in the game. That’s relevant to Ubastet and Gargoyle; but the former now has Cunning to work with, no need to bother with Dargon. So if Dargon has utility, it’s going to be with Gargoyle somehow. That could work, on some manner of Sunspear team…worth experimenting with, at least.
Indeed it is. Very small sample so far of about 10 3T pvp matches. But working as predicted.
Cast sky hero when Dargon is full, to fill gargoyle. Then fire Dargon for attack boost, sometimes can loop due to storm and boost twice in a row
Edit: also ran a lvl 12 mist of scales explore, got the job done. Freeze a potential future weakness but Cedric medals obviously help that
Since I last updated the list, all we’ve gotten is the Werewoods, which needless to say didn’t move the needle much. Beastmaster Torbern’s inflicting of hunters mark complements his skull generation very well, so he might have some uses on a fast non-scaling team. After all, it doesn’t matter if you have a chance to transform if you only need to cast your spell once, right? I doubt it would work out better than any of our other options, but if anybody’s had success using him, please let me know.
Also, I think I would modify the list by moving Sledgepaw to the non-scaling list, and doing away with the scaling-only list altogether. The other four troops listed there COULD be useful, but I question if it’s worth the trouble, given how limited they are in many respects.
“Could” is Catnip for a stupid team builder. Still, I think you’re right and the only one worth arguing is maybe silent sentinel— does any other troop besides Champ Gaard have both skull and spell reduction? Pretty narrow niche, but not nothing
LOL yes it’s been a while since we’ve seen some stupid teams.
Gargoyle has the same combination of skull and spell reduction, for what it’s worth. Silent Sentinel’s third trait is annoying to fight against and semi-vital in the all-faction team run, but I don’t think it’s quite good enough to spend a team slot on in other modes.