Request for Legendary Tier List

I get the power creep argument for those of us who have been here a long time and have full collections, but I feel like anyone without a complete collection would feel more compelled to pull keys frequently, because if everything were worth having then there’d be no reason to save only for the new stuff.

A person missing Gloom Leaf right now probably doesn’t care. But if it were buffed, maybe people would spend keys trying to get it even when it’s not Forest of Thorns week, or at the very least, when it is (currently they might skip, to have more chances at the new legendaries as they drop).

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Good list and excellent points you make when dealing with it.

Here’s a take I can make from a lot of PvP and what troops seem to get used a lot. I think the context of your listing maybe needs to be streamlined in a way where you reconsider your explanations of your tiers? I think from reading a post below, it prompted me to think of the word ‘progressive’. The list needs maybe to look at the progressive nature of the game and how things work in game modes.

In this regard, you’ve tried to cater for maybe all roundedness and encompassed all troops together. Your list maybe be better viewed if you maybe revisit the listing and identify troops as to their core abilities/type

Maybe;

Support

Healers, generators, half way houses (a bit of both) Divinia, Holy St Astra etc.

Tier A and B, Tier C could be for junk.

All-round effectiveness?

Utility troops do a bit for another, or themselves, can change events in battle. Let’s say Keeper of Souls or Emperor K, Magnus, maybe Umberwolf, yep it has quite a bit of utility, King Highforge maybe, always hits back two targets, not effected by stealth, stuns, summons, accelerates Slayer for Fireblade, gives Dwarves 50% start etc.

Overwhelming Performance

Think troops that can effectively win a battle on their own or can seamlessly ride in many a team

Glaycion is a prime example. YG is.

Situationally Effective

Like say Queen Mab (neutered by troops immune to mana burn or are submerged), Taloca (effective when storm running), maybe Macaw etc.

Maybe it’s more apt with the state of the game to identify the best overall and the better at specific things? New players will read that and see where those troops are best suited. It will help them choose which troops they want for which things.

You include several game modes in your assessment. That again makes things difficult, because a troop like say Captain Macaw generally won’t work in explore, it only works vs hero talents and a few troops and needs to submerge a none submerged troop, then recast to kill it. So it’s probably better in PvP where several hero classes can submerge troops. Yet, where is it in T3 PvP.

So maybe you could when describing your assessments, identify their viability in game modes.

So each troop maybe gets a 3-4 line description.

Say - Leviathan

Can reorder opponents and dispel status effects, has utility to submerge itself and deal damage to all troops. Generally a situationally effective troop – has some utility but is rarely seen in any game modes. No known effective teams some use with other dragons, has dual category as a Merfolk/Dragon but unable to be accelerated to a half start.

Things like that.

What made me do this was also looking at a couple of troops.

Wrath - disagree, if you are calling S tier a centrepiece, Wrath is a centrepiece of

Wrath

Doomed Glaive or Club

Obsidius

Mercy

That team is extremely viable at meta PvP. Another reason I also disagree, is I can substitute umpteen troops in that setup and revolve it around Wrath. The conversion of yellow to skulls, the enrage, the conversion of blue to brown and the burn all.

I can make the hero almost any class and it work. I can use Fireblade.

I can swap Obsidius for TPK, Qilin, ZG. I can drop Mercy for a TPK and so on, yet Wrath is still extremely effective. Obsidius works well because stuns will negate things like fireblades and webspinners/savage hunters etc, making Wrath’s lack of skull protection less of an issue. Wrath is an exceptional troop.

Divinia - is it really a centrepiece troop? Does it make any team effective in meta PvP performance? It doesn’t scale really.

I love Divinia, 6,500 PvP uses, but it has been neutered by the Divine nerf and the arrival of say Moon Rabbit and Leprechaun.

I used to run Bard Dawnbringer or Divine Protector, Ubastet, Divinia, Mercy a lot and had a lot of success, but despite all the great things Divinia can supply, it doesn’t have fast or swift or is empowered, and it needs Ishbaala for 40% starts. An empowered to accelerate it is not ideal, it has cleanse, but only on cast. It can give numerous positive effects, but they are random, so it actually is too limited to be something to reliably build a team round. The only team I can think of where I have seen it recently, is within a team with YG, but all it tends to do is maybe extend a battle or never cast. I get that it can random enrage/barrier/submerge/bless etc, but if those were guaranteed on a cast, then it’s a centrepiece imho.

Can you say that Divinia is more useful in teams than Queen Titania? QT is very common, yes it does not have the all roundedness of Divinia, but…

Similarly, Holy St Astra once it casts, can be more effective than Divinia at times.

So I think you are better off recategorizing your lists to reflect how the troops work.

An example, your assessment of B: - Niche is perhaps a little misleading. Is not Flamifier, YG, QT, TP a niche team for QT? You could probably argue nearly all troops could be niche, but it’s maybe a little subjective of an assessment. I don’t know what you could put, maybe ‘effective troops in a variety of environments’ - might be better? If you recategorized, you could pick several types and then describe troops.

A further example, Webspinner B - Bone Dragon C. You can very easily make a team with Webspinner and Bone Dragon and it could even become very effective at T3 pvp. We get lazy, there are awful pvp teams with little or no effort wreaking havoc, so experimenting is fraught, but if we persevere, maybe we can work a few things.

Let’s see, Webspinner, Doomed Axe, Bone Dragon, Grave Seer - that could work well if we wanted to. Even Gimlet, giving Webby an enrage. We could use Moon Rabbit there, or even Mercy, which helps vs Frostmage or entangled starts. We could pop EoE in instead of Doomed Axe, endless possibilities.

Sheggra - C - we could very easily make a skull team with Sheggra. Let me see…

Here’s one, Stonehammer, that much maligned dude, Sheggra, Doomed Blade, Mercy, Titan or Bard or Mech (think tree of knowledge). I mean an exceptional team, albeit slow, Glaycion, Stonehammer (yes that way round is best) Doomed Xbow, Mercy. I never lose vs anything that wants to skull hit. I can beat every meta team with it, but it’s not completely reliable because speed kills, but if I want a team vs most things, that will decimate.

The old Stonehammer/Glaycion/Crossbow/Grave Seer was also good as thief, but too much freeze could be its undoing.

Heck, let’s change colour, Champion of Gaard, Doomed Blade, Sheggra, any empowered you want to accelerate.

So, maybe if I may, you may be better sorting your listings by modes, with descriptions, rather than just popping them all in the tiers like thus, as it will surely help see things better and would be a really nice reference for players. :slight_smile:

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Thanks for the feedback and kind words! I’ll respond to the format points separately from the troop-specific points, don’t want to lose the latter in the shuffle.

I def get that a more specialized list would provide more useful information to newer players. I think the main purpose of the list currently is to list which Legendaries should be targeted with event keys; explaining how to use them would be a bit of an expansion/shift in purpose. It would be also good to kind of have an explanation of why a troop is in a certain tier; I worry there that the list, already pretty wall-of-text-ish, might get a bit unwieldy.

I think a supplemental list, focusing just on the S-A-B troops, and listing them by role/game mode usage could be a good project on the side.

That being said, I probably could stand to refine the explanation of the tiers. If I could find one unifying thread that I ranked the troops based on, it’s “usefulness” to those in the endgame. With the S and A-tiers being very useful in at least one game mode, and the Bs having a very specific usefulness (C and D-tier troops are not used at all, except possibly in troop-restricted events). By “specific usefulness,” I mean that troops in B depend more on other troops to make their teams strong - and become pretty useless without those other troops. King Avelorn is a good example - without some other elves to speed up, he’s not strong enough, either as centerpiece or as support, to carry an endgame team. It’s not so much about average usefulness in everything in the game; it’s more about how good a troop is in the role that it’s commonly used for.

I like this idea a lot, but again, big job. What I will do I think though is start to link individual troops with posts in this thread where they are discussed, so people interested in these troops can see what has been said about them.

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Now then, for the troop rankings:

Wrath - he was very tough for me to rank. I put him in A because I think running him to take advantage of his awesome third trait is a bit too risky (unless you are running Queen of Sin, but the jury’s still out if there’s a top-notch team there). I like him a lot though, and I could be persuaded that, between the burn all enemies/enrage all allies and his self-looping capability, he’s good enough to be S even when not on the front line. A border case that could be argued either way, for sure.

How often do you end up losing Wrath on that Obsidius team in meta pvp? I use a Wrath team in explore12 and, granted that it’s scaling content, but I still end up losing him I’d say once every 6 matches. Obsidius’s stun-all is arguably an essential element - fireblade/webspinner teams are one-shotting him otherwise. Even against normal teams, Wrath’s inability to survive two hits would seem to make him too unreliable in that front slot.

(I think reliability is a major concern with several of these skull-based troops you mentioned, as mentioned below)

Divinia - I think you make some great points. Divinia is clearly a support troop, but I put her in S because she provides just so much support between the board control, the cleanse-all, the life-gain, and the random statuses. That being said, she’s kind of in an awkward place in the modern game, and is a bit more niche than I had thought when making the list (mainly due to being slower than other exploders, as you noted). I’ll move her down to A accordingly.

Queen Titania - B-tier is a bit of a grab bag; it is intended to cover much less-frequently used support troops compared to A-tier, and centerpiece troops who are just too good to lump in with the C-tier. If Titania’s only good team is the Yao Guai one, then she belongs in B, but I tend to think she has a bit more utility than just that team. She isn’t centerpiece material, but between her extra turn and passive faerie fire, I think she has a bit more versatility than the B-tier troops. Could be persuaded otherwise though.

Webspinner, Bone Dragon, Sheggra - These are all skull troops with varying degrees of gimmicky utility.

Webspinner - I put it in B mostly because it’s a summon for Arachnaean Weaver. If it wasn’t a summon for one of the strongest Mythics in the game, it’s probably a C. Maybe it should go there anyway, for consistency?

Bone Dragon - random skull creation I think is just way too gimmicky for a high-level team on offense. MAYBE it gets to B as a defensive troop (a la Lust), but I just can’t see betting the farm on Bone Dragon, the miscasts are too costly.

Sheggra - since she is a converter, not a random generator, I’ve thought at times that there may be a place for Sheggra in B (and have been shot down on those occasions lol). Her biggest weakness is that she only converts one color, but I still think there could be a team with her that can take on meta pvp (especially now that she gets half-mana starts with Maraji Queen). If she created more reds before converting, I think she’d be a solid B, but as it is, it’s a tough call that I think most people would not give her the benefit of the doubt on.

I just had a read of the last posted list, and I’m generally on board.

I was mostly looking for troops that might have been undervalued and need to go up a tier, but then did a second pass looking for ones that might have been overvalued.

  • I think Gorgotha has started to see a bit more use again, and could probably go from C to B. C feels below him :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:.

  • I’d argue Nimue could go down to A with Sekhma, the other dual-converter with no 50% start option. I’d put Alderfather in S, though (I noticed it doesn’t include Underworld troops, though). I don’t see Nimue used a lot, mainly because anywhere she would be used, Alderfather gets used instead (and generally for good reason).

  • I think Webspinner’s fine in B, primarily for its 3rd trait, and not because it’s the summon of A. Weaver (although that is a nice bonus). I don’t think it compares to Bone Dragon or Sheggra, and it gets used a fair bit in defence teams.

  • I think Emperor Liang and Tinseltail could probably go down to B, particularly Tinseltail (low B). I don’t see either used a lot; I think Liang probably fits into the ‘specific teams’ category rather than being a generally viable support, at least at higher levels. I think his Enchant is too slow and unreliable, and his destroy Gems takes too long to get going and depends on the board, plus requires specific troops to make full use of (E.g. maybe Yao and Avelorn? Even then, though, it’s not something I’d use in competitive PvP).

  • If you did include Underworld legendaries, there’d be a few in the upper tiers. Maraji, Beetrix, Gobtruffle, Alderfather… I don’t really want to get into it, though :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:.

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Thanks for the feedback!

  • You do see Gorgotha used a bit more than many of the other C-troops, though I’m not exactly sure why that is. His skull reduction gets bypassed by stun and enrage, and while his explosion is good, I’m not seeing what kinds of teams he uniquely benefits.

  • Interesting points re: Nimue; I pegged her as clearly better than Alderfather when the latter was released, but I can see how it’s become more of a situational call with the release of Maraji Queen making Alderfather a clearly better choice in some teams. Her silence on cast is really really good (though clearly not as good against certain troops) and her 3rd trait is pretty good too, since it targets the first troop (though I wish it triggered on purple matches, like Alderfather’s). I think the combination of everything she brings is better than Sekhma (who’s still pretty good!), particularly since she self-loops. But if I’m missing something and Alderfather is the clearly better option, then she would be an A (or maybe even a B).

  • For sure Webspinner’s third trait is what makes it good; I was just distinguishing it from the other gimmicky skull team troops. It is a uniquely effective defense troop, but would you say it’s an entire tier better than Bone Dragon or Sheggra? Those two can be scary on defense as well.

  • Good points re: Liang and Tinseltail. Liang has been hurt by the release of Mistralus as a passive enchant source, and one thing I think I didn’t factor properly for both troops is that the magic boosting, while good, isn’t a game changer (especially as we’ve gotten so many other ways of increasing magic). I like Tinseltail a lot, but I’ll admit it’s a bit situational. If its always-active spell effect were the explosion instead of the magic gain, it would be an A for sure, but for now I’d agree with moving them both down to B.

  • Yeah, adding faction troops would be a bit pointless anyway, since the list is meant to direct event key spending, but you’re right, there are a number of S-tier Legendaries in the factions. I did make this list to highlight them in a separate thread.

I use him religiously in Explore 12. Stun and enrage isn’t an issue when I can pick the kingdoms.

There’s nothing wrong with all-purpose troops and weapons.

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I was really looking at the list and they way you had categorised the troops that caused me to comment.

So for example with Wrath, there are so many uses with it, not just first slot. The team I mentioned can go many wins in a row vs meta teams. Granted, it’s weakness is skulls, but then again, when opponents runs Sister Superior with massive skull damage (Webspinner, Tracker, Savage Hunter and co) even Glaycion is reverted useless, and so is Gorgotha, Frostfire Wraith etc.

Unless you are running something none Daemon with high skull protection and can generate mana and fast, they are headaches for most teams. So Wrath’s achilles heel is also that of other troops vs skull dealing meta.

Wrath however can kill things fairly easily, can work in so many setups and make skull teams better. A weapon made for it is Doomed Glaive, with the entangle and brown to Doomskulls. I remember before Glaive was released who it’s perfect companion would be.

Wrath’s utility is such that in reality, you can move it around and setup other things. So let’s take Glaycion ahead of it. Although Wrath and Glaycion are not seamless, because Glaycion converts yellow to blue, it’s actually not much of an issue, in that Blue to Brown from Wrath refills Glaycion, and you will be casting Glaycion and making blue. Sometimes it’s possible to fire Wrath, and fill Glaycion and Wrath again. The fact that Glaycion converts red to doomskulls works fine. Classic example, EoE running behind them.

Another intriguing troop with Wrath is Sekhma, blue to skulls, brown to yellow, no block. Never tried it, might be viable.

So, what else for Wrath. How about Umenath, Wrath, Rope Dart Mercy? That could work, Umenath with enrage. :o

Fireblades, so many choices. Here’s one I tried today limitedly. Wrath, The Eigth Sin, Mercy, Obsidius (or Queen Beetrix ahead of Mercy) - Slayer. Use Mercy to start Wrath, fire Wrath, run Shentang banner, when Sin full, you’ve probably cast Wrath. Obsidius picks up excess brown and all purple. Pull Sin ahead, you’ve got the enrage from Wrath, the burn and if running Slayer, you also have Chill of Death and Life Siphon, plus ofc Fireblade. Siphon gains you life, key for the weapon to create more skulls and CoD is a 100% freeze, unless immune, to one troop.

In explore, arguably Fireblade is perfect, so Wrath would be better served running in slot 2, 3 or 4, behind none blocking troops. I think I’ve ran a lot of stuff with it behind hero. Perhaps an underestimated hero in first slot is a Warden hero. 30% dodge, Vanguard, Root Trap, and maybe with Moon Rabbit in the team to also give it a bless. Works well vs those evil damage dealers.

re Webspinner and Bone Dragon. Your description indicates B tier troops are too good to match with C tier, and I provided an example of those 2 troops working okay together. :slight_smile:

Re Gorgotha, yep, pretty nice, swap that for Wrath in many setups, immune to burning is also a thing…

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That’s an argument that Gorgotha’s too good to be in C, I’ll bump him up. I’m damn curious though, what kind of teams are you using where you’d use Gorgotha instead of Mountain Crusher+Rock Solid hero or one of the better skull-reduction tanks?

Interesting team, props for creative use of the 8th Sin. It seems like too risky of a weapon to rely on (very Bone Dragon-ish, where it can single-handedly win or lose the match), but who knows, it might be good for Explore?

I’ll bump Wrath up to S, it seems to be justified based on what you’ve said.

Right, and I’m just saying that while Webspinner may have enough positives to be in B, I’m not there on Bone Dragon yet, because relying on random skull creation seems too unreliable of a strategy for B-tier. For similar reasons, I ended up demoting Scylla to C-tier as well (bonestorms are just a bit too risky and unpredictable to rely on). If you think Bone Dragon can avoid misfires consistently enough to be a reliable high-level pvp troop, then I’ll move it up too.

With the changes, B-tier is getting pretty beefy, and as such I’m thinking of adding a tier in between the current B and C-tiers. It just seems to me that there’s getting to be a significant difference between the types of teams that, say, King Avelorn or Emperor Khorvash can enable, compared to the teams that use the likes of King Highforge or Magnus. Coming up with the right description for the tiers is going to be the challenge. Here’s what I have in mind:

S-Tier: no change

A-Tier: Useful support for some of the strongest teams,

B-Tier: Lesser support troops or strong troops that support a smaller variety of teams,

C-Tier: Endgame-viable troops that only work on niche teams.

I’m basically using 2017 strategies in 2020.

MC+ Rock Solid isn’t a perfect solution and is prone to occasional skull cascade issues. If you’re playing thousands of match, you’re bound to run into it sooner or later.

As for: “one of the better skull-reduction tanks” what has a better raw skull reduction rate than Gorgotha? I’m only familiar with Stonehammer from what I know and Gem creation isn’t always consistent.

The team I farm with uses Sunspear since I’m done leveling classes, though I have variations of the team that can use a red storm, blue storm, yellow storm, or green storm. Haven’t found one for brown or purple that I liked yet though.

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I meant “better” in the sense of contributing more to the team than exploding+skull reduction, not having a higher percentage of skull reduction (e.g. Glaycion, various Mythics, maybe a handful of other troops with Stoneskin). Maybe they would make sense, maybe they wouldn’t, hard to say in a vacuum.

If he’s just trying to go fast and not die, skull reduction and board explosion for mana generation is all he really needs :man_shrugging:

There’s always personal bias in these things, but looking at:

S-Tier: no change

A-Tier: Useful support for some of the strongest teams,

B-Tier: Lesser support troops or strong troops that support a smaller variety of teams,

C-Tier: Endgame-viable troops that only work on niche teams.

This would certainly put Jarl in the A bracket (I find you are severely underestimating the synergy of the giants). I also would argue Hyndia deserves an S tier simply due to her third trait and the very powerful Titan hero class (Mang/MC).

Titan cookie cutter: MC+Fire Giant+Jarl+Hyndia can crack most problems. They lack the defensive staying power, but in a few loops Jarl and FG get enough Hyndia boosts to demolish the heavier teams and with Hyndia as a safety valve you simply have a very achievable powerhouse team.

I would argue this team is the most obtainable powerhouse team. Yes there are stronger teams, but those have a very different resource curve.

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Thanks for the feedback!

I might be underestimating the Giants. But I just found Jarl maddeningly unreliable when using him, and Hyndla’s freeze isn’t as reliable protection against miscast with Orpheus medals in play these days. Maybe I need to rethink when to cast Jarl? You’re right, the team is pretty accessible for a pvp option, but I tend to think of it as a “viable, but inconsistent” option, similarly to a Bone Dragon-based skull team these days.

Also, is the Jarl-Fire Giant team still the main one for giants? I thought Sheggra’s Spine teams were getting more popular.

(Related question - I thought a yellow weapon like Flammifer or Sky Hero was more common with that team than Mountain Crusher, whose brown would gum up looping with Jarl?)

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The Giant cookie Cutter team is not as reliable as the real top-tier teams, but it is among the most obtainable teams with the power to tackle everything (though again, not as reliable as the real top teams).

It’s obtainable in a month or two and it might take a year or so before a "free"player has a Mythical custom team to outperform it.

If we look at the S-team options they are strong, but whereas Hyndia can be a cornerstone in a very easily obtainable synergetic team, whereas the others need some heavy hitters (the S list is support heavy).

Divine Ishabalaa is fantastic, but the Giant Cookie Cutter outperforms teams with her at heart unless you pair her up with synergetic mythics. So on the one hand she has more room in the true top end teams, on the other hand she can’t do the real heavy lifting on her own.

On Flammifier and the Spine; It’s a question of obtainability and resources. The cookie cutter team with MC is pretty much easily available and really cheap on resources. A few hours for the traitstones and a few low level delves for the ingots and you can ram through pretty much everything. it’s hard to beat bang for the buck.

If the argument is: But in the long run this team is not so viable and thus not worthy of S-tier I counter that this team will be many players high end team for perhaps a year, so worthy your (low) investment.

By classifying Jarl as C you give the impression he’s just not good, while in truth he’s the cornerstone of this really important team (and synergetic with the best beginner class).

Hyndia should be S because of her even greater synergy with the Titan class. She makes a mid level hero into a monster who one-shots left and right, just as long as you get a few loops going. It’s hard to find a troop that has that much effect.

Lastly a last pitch for the Giants: Whereas many looping teams are slow as they miss a nuke, the giants all have a damage dealing attack, which makes them a lot faster than for example Apothecary/Acolyte teams.

So the real value of the giants is not their top end potential, but their usefulness/bang for the buck is something that elevates them over most other legendaries… it’s hard to come up with a just as good setup that works for such a long period.

But that’s IMHO… I applaud your hard work :smiley:

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You raise some good points here. The point about accessibility of the giants team goes back to whether or not this list should be modified based on early-game value or utility. Since we are tying the list to event key expenditure, there is an argument for doing so, but I am opting not to, mainly because don’t think there are really any of the higher-tier troops who aren’t as good in the early game as they are later on.

Like your example of Divine Ishbaala, I think she’s just as good or better than the giants in the early game - pairing her with Moon Rabbit and another skull-based troop doesn’t require any Mythics and is a strong and reliable option at all levels. Likewise, centerpiece troops like Yao Guai and Glaycion don’t need any Mythic troops to perform at a high level, so without more specifics, I don’t agree that any of these troops are harder to build around than the Giants (who still require two legendary troops to function, not especially easy to pull unless it’s Stormheim week).

I think the problem with Jarl looking maybe worse than he actually is in C-tier may be sorted out when I release an updated list, with a mix of those currently in B and C-tiers.

Hyndla does synergize well with Titan class, but giants are no longer the basis of the best teams, either in pvp or in scaling content, and she doesn’t quite bring enough to be used in a mixed team, hence the B-ranking (which is still pretty good!).

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And there’s my personal bias: I’m not agreeing on any of those points^^

Joking aside, I understand your logic (still Giants should be raised one tier)

That list and the latest list in itself epitomize the problems with such a list, we try to be arbitrary and logical, but it’s neigh impossible, which leads to amusing shifts of cards up and down the list.

Looking at that suggestion, I just can’t go there for Jarl at the current time. Too often it feels like casting him is a 50-50 on whether or not you get an extra turn, even with a good board. I think his reliability is comparable to (or even less reliable than) Bone Dragon, say, on the team Xolid mentioned above, and therefore they both belong in C-tier.

Now Hyndla in A-tier, that’s a bit more arguable. Looking at who I currently have in A-tier:

Holy St. Astra
Keeper of Souls
King Bloodhammer

I think these three are clearly better/more useful than Hyndla, as they are viable in scaling content (and non-scaling content).

Sekhma
Sir Quentin Hadley

Skull-based dual converters are extremely versatile and strong troops. While I can’t cite specific teams off the top of my head, I feel pretty confident that there are more teams that can be used at a high level using these two than there are for Hyndla

Divinia
Queen Titania

These are the closest calls, and involve a bit more speculation. Honestly I’m closer to dropping these two to B on a more conservative list than I am to moving Hyndla up to A. But these are in A because my sense is that they can be used in more teams and/or stronger teams than the Giants team that feature Hyndla.

I do wonder which teams you have that have Sir Quentin Hadley as center piece that beatsthe snot out of a Hyndia looping team :smiley:

Using your conditions :wink:

As an A-tier, Sir Quentin isn’t a centerpiece; he’d be in S-tier if he was. Too bad Knight class is terrible and there aren’t really any notable skull-centric Knights, otherwise he could contend for S.

Sir Quentin has 50% mana start and generates yellow gems. This means he probably pairs well with dual converters who can use the yellow in their conversion (Glaycion, Alderfather, Nimue in particular). He’s also beast type, meaning he gets free barriers if looped with Forest Guardian as well (not to mention they feed each other’s skull generation) . I think teams built around these kinds of pairings outperform the giants in general (and particularly any Jarl team).

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