I think we need some troop that can counter endless loops, especially now we are going to getting more and more the same type of low-effort, self-loop jouney troops.
Yes, I know snap freeze exists. But first, I might want to use a different class to level that class. Second, it does not always land on the correct troop to stop the looping.
What I’m proposing is a troop, probably mythic one, with the trait: Freeze all enemies, (or the casting enemy), when an enemy casts a spell. The freeze should starts the effect at the moment when the enemy is casting, so that they’ll immediately be frozen and won’t get an extra turn.
It’s not even that OP, since Queen Beetrix can still do her thing without any problem. Also it’s a troop, not a class like Elementalist, that everyone could abuse it in the defense teams to annoy people. If you want to include this troop, you have to dedicate one position in your team to this role rather than damage output or mana accumulation.
I know the thought of not being able to loop infinitely still scares some people, but you should be very unlikely to meet one specific troop in normal game modes except pvp.
And for pvp, considering how frequently I see Elementalist in a defense team, I’m already forced to include a cleanse option in my team all the time so it doesn’t really change anything.
My additional suggestion is to make that troop to have this trait to be Xathenos and make it a boss troop.
And then all other 4 knights in Apocalypse can also get their 3rd trait changed to: Burn / Disease / Stun / Deathmark all enemies when an enemy casts a spell for War / Plague / Famine / Death.
Basically this will make the Apocalypse mythics more useful, since they are currently the worst ones in the game as they can’t even contribute to kingdom power levels. And also I like the theme a bit more.
Also this means it won’t be that easy for players to get the new boss Xathenos who can counter looping teams.
Why stop there? There’s also Curse, Silence, Web, Entangle, Lycanthropy, as well as a few other somewhat less punishing status effects. And lets not just automatically throw them at the entire opponent team when they casts a spell, also when they match gems.
Honestly, asking for something that auto-cripples the opponent whenever they use the one main action in the game, casting spells, feels like it even breaks the Worst Idea Ever scale. Looping is sort of an issue, but there are better way to solve it than to cause 99% of players to quit in frustration. For your proposal above, the best way to play would be to put those troops into your team, then always pass your turn and wait for your opponent to die from self inflicted status effects.
As the OP has posted, Nyar’Mel already exists to Stun when an enemy casts and it doesn’t break things in the grand scheme of things.
The other suggestions to Burn and Disease would not break things.
On death triggers like Borealis are extensions of the auto-cripple on cast, but when fatal, and on death triggers that aren’t summons are some of the weaker 3rd traits of the game.
There is room for the design team to go in regards to cause an effect when an Enemy casts a spell, but there likely needs to be some restrictions.
Probably shouldn’t affect all enemies on a single cast
Shouldn’t actively affect stats: i.e. Silence, Web, Entangle
Curse, Death Mark, and Lycanthropy (separately) can be viable punishment effects, even if unfun to be on the receiving end. Once again, it should not hit every enemy on a single enemy cast and troops with these kinds of effects need to be able to be stunned.
A trait to freeze an enemy when an enemy casts a spell, I’m all for it. However, I wouldn’t want to see a freeze all enemies version.
Nyar’Mel only hits one random troop, not the entire team, and Stun is pretty harmless unless combined with other effects. Death Mark, especially to the whole team, would cause a major shitstorm. It gets applied on your turn, right before control passes over to the opponent. Meaning you’ve had your turn of safety. When control returns, each of your troops immediately has a 10% chance to die, before you can do anything. That’s bound to make using spells a fun experience.
Those only happen once, not every other turn, and the player is in control of when to trigger them.
Also, since you are in a similar bracket. Let me explain why then.
First of all, it’s one troop. Even if it’s the most OP troop, it can be there only in one defense team on one day.
Now, let’s see a typical GW defense team, double converter + book + a 4th troop.
A typical offense team has double converter, hero and a 4th troop.
Ideally your hero and 4th troop can’t be frozen. And your double converter even if frozen, won’t be on the key color.
There are teams that has all 4 troops immune to frozen, if you want to counter that, you need curse, and you can’t have it because you already have 4 troops if you want to include this troop.
By “not considering others an idiot” I meant to say please actually think through why do you think this is a bad idea before commenting. Because when I wrote this post, I did the thinking, not an idiot or someone who don’t know how to play the game randomly throwing ideas.
Not always. But it can very well mean that you lose. And if you lose your turn after each cast - just in case you can’t use 4 troops that are immune to frozen and make a good team - you’re pretty much doomed.
On the other hand, if that one troop can be used on two or three days, suddenly your chances of winning are a lot better (providing the same thing).
And what if they add more than just that one troop who have this trait - once it’s created they’ll likely use it?
I’m not convinced that this is a good idea
Yes, I can see that you’ve thought it through, but I don’t think we have either the same idea of how it’s supposed to work or the same opinion on the possible impact this could have.
I thought when mentioning defense you talked about pvp as you didn’t specifically mention GWs, that’s why I wrote that question in passing, not to insult your intelligence or anything like that.
If you throw an idea out there, people will have their opinions. That may or may not change yours, but it doesn’t mean anyone is an idiot.
Is Death Mark the only one you’re concerned about? So Burn and Disease would be fine? It wouldn’t be nice to shut down every single type of an ability because of one effect.
I remember people actually making topics asking for Death Mark to be more relevant. On a properly made troop, this sounds like a powerful troop that could be made.
Like I said, as long as it’s not applied to the full team on one cast, it can work.
However, if you want to simulate what a full team version of Death Marks does on your cast, the Deathknight class exists, though I never see anyone actually use it nowadays.
As in the GW offensive side, the goal was also to somewhat counter the book meta. My feeling is that the devs are trying different options for that, but not quite getting it.
Back when Elementalist was introduced, I was dead against it because I think it will kill the pvp. But many people think it will counter the book meta. And guess what, it made it worse.
It’s all about who gets the first extra turn. And the one who gets it will continue it forever, or at least cripple the opponent. Elementalist, Ullor, can’t change this.
Any designed counter, if it can’t break this, it won’t work.
That’s why the basic idea here is to break the extra turn chain when the opponent uses a spell, especially for empowered converters.
Tbh, it doesn’t work if your opponent book hero can’t be frozen, which has been mostly the case since they’ll be Elementalist.
And of course it won’t work at all if it’s just freeze the specific enemy troop that casts, for the same reason why it doesn’t work that well as defense in GW with double empowered converters.
Let me also just add a few reminders:
I said “all” or “the specific troop” in the main post. It can even be “a random troop” but I think then it becomes meaningless.
I see many opposite opinions are way too much focused on the “all” part. If you just want to win an argument, that’s the correct thing to do, focusing on the extreme argument and counter it. But if your goal is to give meaningful contributions, maybe just consider the basic idea.
As I mentioned in the main post, how the trait works is first apply freeze before the enemy’s spell effect, which means if the spell is cleanse / bless, it won’t have any effect. That’s an easy counter.
The main post has also mentioned that a cleanse option is already almost always needed in your team because how often you see Elementalist as defense.
