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Worse than Bone Dragon: The Invisible Threat

Clickbait-y title, I know. But there is one thing worse than Bone Dragon right now. “Is it Khorvash?” You know what, yes. Khorvash is worse than Bone Dragon imo, but that’s not what I’m here to talk about.

After a month and change in one of the best guilds in the game (Rank six and climbing), I have encountered a problem. And it is not a problem that many people seem to be talking about. Probably because it effects what I estimate to be a percentage of players lower than what the Guild Update nerfed. Probably a fraction of a fraction of a percent.

Bone Dragon is the big bad right now. Everyone is worried about it, and I laughed at first. How could people be having trouble with something that I don’t even consider a trivial threat?

Then I realized… Mab… Khorvash… Bone Dragon… Manticore… None of it matters any more. Not to me, anyway. Two months ago, I was a scared level 275 with no idea what to do about these horrifying teams I saw. Khorvash dealing fifty true damage for fourteen mana, stunning two enemies, and draining out half of my team. It was terrifying.

But it stopped mattering.

I realized this shortly after Tacet started having trouble with his Bombots. I thought it was funny how Bone Dragon countered the troop completely and had a bit of a chuckle at what I considered good counterplay to a team that, imo, should only be used for farming.

I enjoyed watching this. And then people started having trouble with it with other teams and it made me think “Oh, these people must have some sort of problem being matched against higher level people”.

Then I saw more and more people and… Bone Dragon really looks like a problem, now. Not as bad as Khorvash was, but still. So I sat and thank, and sat and thunk, trying to figure out why this wasn’t effecting me.

Then this thread appeared:

I responded and tried to come up with a defense team that might actually prove difficult to fight for me. I came up with this, and tested with the help of @ZooKeeper

(Mechanist class on hero)

I found that this gave me a bit of a challenge, but even a team that I specifically designed, knowing the potential weaknesses of my team, could not stop the invasion team that I use.

If all else fails… If everyone else is experiencing the same things and I am not… Then this must be a problem. And so it is.

I will not comment on the problem of Bone Dragon from experience. I cannot. My commentary on it is sheer speculation and what I think should be done from a design perspective. But it is not a threat to me. And the fact that it is not a threat is, in itself, a problem.

I won’t say that there is no problem with Bone Dragon, or you can counter it with X, Y, and Z. Enough people are having trouble for it to be a problem, therefore it is. But I am here today to look at another problem.

The invade meta. If you play correctly, barring any major bad luck, it is entirely possible to win on your first or second turn in a majority of your games. There are teams that slow this down to them being able to take three or four turns from you, but in doing so, they lack the teeth needed to be a threat at all.

I will not share what the team that I use is. I will not share how to use it. And I recommend anyone that knows what it is does the same out of courtesy for our fellow forum-goers. The truth is, I am starting to get burnt out because of this team. It is so ruthlessly efficient and ludicrously overpowered that games just breeze by. The only difference the enemy team makes to me is what art I see and what death cries I hear as I mow through another and another match.

This needs to be addressed, but for once, I have no idea how to do so. I am normally fairly clever when it comes to finding ways to balance things, even things out, or suggest unorthodox ideas to curb the maximum potential of a game element. I take pride in offering my opinions and ideas to the developers of various games that I play. But… I have nothing.

What needs to be addressed here is the teams that can win invades in one or two turns. Yes. This will hurt end/post game players. A lot. Heavily. This will be wildly unpopular, but this is a ticking time bomb. I’m already considering calling it quits because of how repetitive this game has gotten, and I salute those on the leaderboards for their drive and ability to do the same thing over and over again. But the challenge is gone for me.

I get no joy out of hurling massive metaphorical fireballs at the equivalent of a single twig. Getting faster, more efficient, and whatnot is not a drive for me. I need something to play against. Not a routine series of steps to execute in order, again and again, ad infinitum.

Please address the invade team meta. Yes, Bone Dragon and balance there is important too. But I wish for at least some word, some faint hope, that you will get around to bringing down the power scale of true end/post game invasion teams.

I am not talking about the level 1000 that has trouble with BD. I am talking about the level three hundred and sixty two sitting before you, burning herself out from doing the same thing over and over again like a machine because Bone Dragon doesn’t even cross her mind when she blows through another team like a bitter Glacial Peaks breeze through a scantily-clad Leonian Devoted.

Editing to add some additional points to this discussion:

  • This is not just me. There are other people who breeze through BD teams as well. And they will hate to read this. To them, I apologize. But this needs to be addressed.

  • “Just use another team” Oh yes, you try using butter to lube your mechanics. Tell me how well that works. Other teams just don’t do this job well, and I feel that one should not have to nerf themselves to enjoy the game

  • “You didn’t specify which troops need to be nerfed.” Nerfing will not work due to how things like this work mechanically. No, there probably needs to be an overhaul here. If the devs need somewhere to look, I will point them in the direction of Hellcat/Alchemist/Goblin Rocket/Goblin Rocket. That is the simplest and honestly weakest one of these teams that I can think of. There are more synergies like that. And I’m not just talking about mana loop teams. But that style of thing. If they want to know specifically the team that I am having issues with (not troubles. Issues. Worded carefully), then I will create a video for them and make it unlisted, of this specific team in action.

  • “You’re not a dev, you don’t do this for a living, what do you know?” You’re right. I’m not. I do not specialize in this, but it is a thing that I take great interest in and enjoy observing and dissecting. Most of the playerbase hasn’t caught onto this and it is something executed by only a handful of players. It is not something I would expect anyone to come up with on their own or see coming in a million years. The only way something like this could come out of the woodwork is with a great deal of loyal and dedicated fans all trying to find the most optimal invade team. One person was bound to find something like this, no matter how well a game is balanced. Especially with a following so large as this one’s. tl;dr on this point: The devs are wonderful, and do an amazing job, and this is not their fault in any way. I’m actually impressed that this took so long to happen and that only a handful of players are catching on to such a thing

  • “Your thread is too long, and I didn’t read it!” Tl;dr: Whole topic in four words: “Please nerf invade teams”

  • “Really though what’s the teaaaaaaaaam?” No. You might think you want it, but you might also think that an unlimited supply of candy is a good thing too, until you overeat. It would be unhealthy for the longevity of the game.

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You simply cannot come out with this and not state the team. Send me a PM :+1:

No. I already addressed that, but I’ll address it again.

Whoa wall of text.

I almost read it all.

Yes, I kinda agree with the sentiments.

No, I don’t think much is gonna happen to soften invade teams.

Is this threat worse than BD? nah. Worse than Mantibores? No.

Power creep easy mode is an issue. Having the game not fun is a worse issue to me.

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Well if only a handful use it then there is no point overhauling the game. Thread is therefore pointless

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You just made me swear audibly because I’ve been trying to think of a good name for that team for the LONGEST time. THANK YOU! Stealing that now.

But that’s what this problem is. It is making the game not fun any more by taking all thought out of invading. I would like a challenge, even if that challenge is barreling down the throat of a team poised to kick my ass six ways to Tuesday.

Hell, PLEASE give me a defense team that will kick my ass six ways to Tuesday. Not having a challenge is worse than not having a chance, imo. And trust me, I’m a F2P Hearthstone player. I would know.

Are you not able to resist the urge to use a secret team? Come up with a few fun teams and rotate them, quite a simple solution unless you are unable to fight your addiction

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I think you’re in a minority. Most players like to farm. It’s a collection game needing obscene amounts of currency. Most players worry about their 90 sec farm times - having to actually read the enemy team or watch what they do would be an unwelcome waste of efficiency…

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I don’t understand. By your own admission, this miracle team that can win on turn one (there are many, I’m not sure why you keep it such a secret) is making the game boring for you. Your counter argument to, “just use another team,” amounts to, “no thanks.” In my eyes, you describe a problem, the solution, and a strangely-justified rejection.

I suggest you challenge yourself by not using the miracle team. There are plenty of close-to-great teams you can use that should vary the play style enough to keep you interested (and it sounds like you’re interested in losing more, which should open up the variety even further).

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Refer to the second point down.

I would seriously hope not. If I am, then this is a far different game than I signed up for. I’ll get off the train and go back to Puzzle Quest, then

The severe drop in efficiency makes it very, very not worth it. Especially with how damned easy this is to build.

Actually? Know what. After what I just said to Jainus’s point, I’m out. See ya.

You are being questioned on it because your rejection is illogical.

You can easily make the required changes yourself but refuse to for obvious efficiency reasons. You want the devs to change it for you? Then you will still lose the efficiency.

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If you care about that, then you’re after the speed-farming route not the challenge that you claim - and the whole thread doesn’t make a great deal of sense.

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Everyone is right in here. You complain about using the same team which is to good in your opinion, but you don’t want to use other teams because they are not to good? What?
You are denying yourself with everything you said.

Other then that devs are implementing a customizable defense team, that might offer some challenge.

I also have a HUUUUUUGE secret. Does it sound interesting?

Tough, you cant handle how amazing it is. Bye.

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Like saying: Chocolate is the best food in the world and I always eat it. Because of always eating it I’m getting bored of its taste. But I don’t want to eat any other food because they don’t taste as good as chocolate.

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It also needs to be a chocolate nobody has ever heard of… but the chocolate industry must do something about it as its just so god damn tasty I cannot stop eating it.

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This is how i feel about my s&m redux team.

@Kurokazna
if you want to nerf the time per game, please increase rewards gained per, at least in terms of reaching tier1 and 1500 seals - to be able to reach that still using around same time for the week

otherwise the game will hit too much on ppl who are trying to have a life.

thats all i have to say.
i dont mind more fun/more challenge whatsoever but some minimums i want to achieve and i dont want it being paid with a too big price on my reality.

the problem that you are having is hitting a marginal minority of players while the solution you suggest is hitting the majority of players.

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chockolate origin may slowely reveal itself once chockolate traitstones are on sale for the week

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Do not forget to put the info in the spoiler section. :wink:

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