[NOT A BUG][IT IS A BUG] Archer vs. infernal armor

Platform, device version and operating system:
PC/Mobile tested on steam and android

Screenshot or image:

What you were expecting to happen, and what actually happened:
Not expected this for sure! The instant kill from Archer’s Bull’s Eye trait is reflected by infernal armor and leads to instant suicide.

How often does this happen? When did it begin happening?
Always. Probably it is not a new bug just not many plays archer.

Steps to make it happen again
Create the following setup

Attack team: [1223,6479,6682,6460,3055,2,1,1,1,1,3,3,14004]
Defense team: [6508,6508,6508,6508,3017,2,2,3,3,1,3,1,14034]

Test your own def team from pvp menu, fight, se your hero commit suicide.

it was always like that, as least for years imo

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I’d argue that this should in fact be considered a bug. Why?

1 - When you kill a troop through any normal means, the damage number shown is capped at the troop’s total durability (presumably calculated as simply “before” - “after”)
2 - Thus, by all appearances an instant kill is merely inflicting a damage value equal to a troop’s total durability, so shouldn’t reflect damage be calculated from that number?
3 - If you Devour a Troop that has Reflect status, you receive reflect damage calculated from their Armor/Life lost. Why should Lethal Damage be any different?

Having said that, I recognize that this issue with reflect damage applies to all amounts of damage – e.g. if I inflict 100 Skull damage to a troop with Infernal Armor and only 5 durability left, I receive 25 points reflect damage, not 1.

And there’s the really obvious workaround: Barrier nullifies reflect damage. So when you can afford the extra step you can (quite literally) save your Hero.


That does not means it’s not a bug.

I can’t decide you agree it is a bug or you disagree.

If it is normal that instant kills are reflected then why it does not kill Zuul?

Other instant kill vs. reflect issue, also trait related. Megavore’s last trait vs. troops with reflect buff. Easy to get wrecked in Mirror Halls delve, my guild mate lost a sigil once to that.

back to the topic.
The trait says it reflects skull dmg and not instant kill. Instant kills from traits or spells should not be reflected at all!
I think this is a bug.

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I remember this used to happen with Zuul too; since lethal damage was calculated as 2000 total damage or something similar.
It was around time when they introduced reflection (and corresponding HoM delve).
They corrected this for Zuul, so I’m assuming they considered it NOT “working as intended”

And you could kill yourself the same way by using Rope Dart as well and probably any other armor removing weapons.
Spells are fixed now, but traits are not.

I’m agreeing that it feels like a bug, especially given the comparison to Devour. If Devour reflected the same as Lethal Damage then it would be patently useless against reflects.

As Zuul can get around the blessed status effect, i believe that the spell first dispels the targeted troop, then applies the lethal damage.

Of course, the spell doesn’t specify that effect, but that would also explain the reflection issue as well with Zuul.

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yes, lethal damage does dispel first since patch 4.6

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Hey all,

This isn’t a bug, confirmed with the team just in case (as someone who plays Orbweaver).

The Infernal Armor has successfully reflected the damage, which has then triggered the Bull’s Eye trait. This had the chance to be lethal, which in this case it was, was reflected back to your Hero and destroyed them instantly.

Jeto (she/they) - Support Human :woman_mage:t2:

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Congrats they were able to comprehend what happens, but I described that in the opening post.
It just seems stupid and inconsistent with other lethal dmgs.
If lethal dmg spells dispel the target before the kill, then lethal dmg traits should do that too, but this still won’t solve the problem, since it is a trait which reflects the lethal dmg.
All the reflection based bug originated from the lazy implementation of lethal dmg, cause it actually does an insane amount of dmg instead of using a different kill mechanism. But laziness won.

There are two lethal dmg dealing traits in the game. Archer’s Bull’s Eye, and Megavore’s 3rd trait. If Megavore’s 3rd trait trigger and hits a target with reflect status effect it leads to instant suicide. I assume assassins 3rd trait suffers from the same bug and the Rising Shadows talent too.
If Bull’s Eye triggers on Infernal Armor (trait) it is also leads to instant suicide, in this case the target should be cursed and stunned before the kill since dispel do nothing.

Lets do a thought experiment. If a trait ever would be introduced which reflects spell dmg, will it kill Zuul or not?

There should be consistent behavior across all instant kill stuff.
Therefor I still consider this a bug!


I agree it’s not a bug, with the way you’ve described it, but am I correct in this order of events:

  1. Hero does skull damage to an enemy troop that has reflect.
  2. Bullseye (15% chance) triggers
  3. Enemy troop takes lethal skull damage.
  4. Enemy troop reflects lethal skull damage instead of normal amount (25-75%).
  5. Hero dies.

Is it possible for the hero to NOT trigger Bullseye, but still reflect lethal damage? In other words, does the game reflect the amount of skull damage the troop took, or does it roll a separate event for how much damage is reflected, and in that separate event, Bullseye can trigger. So it would look like this:

  1. Hero does skull damage to an enemy troop that has reflect.
  2. Bullseye (15% chance) does NOT trigger.
  3. Enemy troop takes normal skull damage.
  4. Enemy troop process Reflect.
  5. Hero attacks itself for 25-75% of normal skull damage (the reflect amount)
  6. Bullseye procs. Hero dies. Enemy troop lives.

Sorry, @Jeto but this is not a sensible outcome. Therefore, it’s a bug.


How is it not a sensible outcome? If I’m taking lethal damage, and I reflect even a portion of that, it’s still lethal. That’s literally what lethal means. The skull damage you’re dealing is lethal, so what gets reflected is lethal. You both die.

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It’s not sensible because it breaks a key rule of the game’s design: talents and traits (particularly those of classes) always benefit the user.

In a way, it’s similar to the problem with Lycanthropy gems. And it’s related to the fact abilities like those of Essence of Evil and Reflection of Good don’t need to explain “all status effects” to mean “all bad effects on the enemy” and “all good effects on yourself.”

The real problem is that the implementation of insta-kills is lazy and inconsistent. This probably has a lot to do with the history of the game’s development. But the fact that this ability behaves differently from Zuul’Goth’s spell (as previously mentioned) indicates both that there are two separate ways of insta-killing in the game (which is never a good sign), and that there is a relatively simple fix for the problem – though I suspect the way Guild Wars scores insta-kills and armour stripping would also need to be fixed.

In case you’re wondering, the reason this happens is that the game treats an insta-kill as causing 2000 damage. This is an old work-around that could potentially be broken by a troop that resists skull damage, etc, etc. In other words, it’s not a good way of doing things.

However, the most concerning aspect is that the devs are essentially lying to us – in very Putin-esque fashion. They don’t want to spend the time fixing an issue that they see as a low priority, so instead of coming clean, they recast the issue as “not a bug” and make @Jeto gaslight the players on their behalf. This is insulting, and one of the reasons why the game has lost a lot of long-time players.

Don’t get me wrong: this is a fantastic game. But that’s precisely why we care about it, and why we want to see it working properly. The devs do not value the community or the opinions of people who truly understand the game – and we’re constantly reminded of that fact.


I agree it is “technically correct” behavior based on internal implementation, but with all respect to the devs the “bug” is the implementation itself.

Reasoning repeated below.

Because the damage number shown in the game itself when lethal damage hits is visibly capped to that Troop’s total Life+Armor, implying THAT was the damage dealt (and thus, any reflected damage should be based on THAT value). If Lethal Damage tells me it killed a troop with “400” damage then I reasonably expect Infernal Armor to reflect no more than “100” damage back to me.

Which, by the way, is exactly what we see with Devour (itself functionally lethal regardless of stats), i.e. if you Devour a troop under Reflect status you receive 50% of their Life+Armor in reflected damage (effectively reducing the Devour stat gain by 50%) quite clearly proving that the damage dealt by Devour was indeed equal to their total Life+Armor and ignoring any damage reduction traits (though, of course, it is easily blocked by passive traits and Barrier).

So from the player’s perspective – information the game itself shows us – Devour gets it right. Why doesn’t lethal damage?

To be fair, I agree there are many complications based on specific contexts, like whether an effect originates from an ally or enemy.

  • Stealthy trait only blocks hostile spells, ally spells can still target them (overall intuitive and good, despite not being stated by the tooltip)
  • Princess Elspeth and Sacrificial Priest can kill allies through Invulnerable trait when enemies (e.g. Zuul’Goth) cannot
  • Traits like Drake Rider’s “Loyal Steed” summon a troop at the user’s Level instead of its Magic stat (overall intuitive and good, but inconsistent with other summons)
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Your alternative scenario never happens.

What actually happens

  1. Hero does skull dmg
  2. Bulls eye triggered
  3. 25% is reflected by enemy troop, both dmg and instant kill
  4. Enemy troop dies
  5. hero dies
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