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My pledge to support GoW

I’m VIP 10, and stopped spending money on this game more than 8 months ago. In fact, I quit playing altogether for most of that time. A big part of what drove me away was seeing the devs push lots of aggressive monetization (especially campaigns) while offering few quality of life improvements in return. Came back last week to see if things had gotten any better, and immediately encountered this Weaver debacle. Guess I’ll keep not spending money in solidarity.

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It’s interesting, because while outrage is incredibly common on these forums, and has been for a couple years now, this might be one of the biggest explosions I’ve seen.

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Ridiculous bugs are one thing, but devs literally stealing our resources and money, that’s another.

Curious to see if devs eventually do the right thing.

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VIP11 here, and like many before me I stopped spending a while back, because of the Company (not because of the Product).

We all have different levels of Tolerance and Breaking Points: mine was the documented Patronizing behaviour of the Mods, coupled with a wave of Censoring here in Forums, that said all I needed to know about this Company. It cost them easily 500USD in Mythic packs (which I had been buying consistently until the risk of dupes became too high, and would have continue to acquire after they implemented dupe protection), plus campaign passes and potential flash offers.

Countless excuses, misleadings, radio silences, and outright lies later (see Forums), I went from being a non-paying customer, to proactively warning my guildies against spending, while providing them with the corresponding supporting facts.

This situation we are experiencing may be the breaking point for some, or it may cause them to start advising others against spending: either way, the reality has been quite consistent since @Sirrian (no longer taggable) and @Nimhain stepped back.

That reality is that IP2 (not 505, as it’s often brought forward when trying to excuse certain behaviours) has allowed the playerbase to be treated in a particular way (dodges, silences, misleads…) and, unsurprisingly, it has only gotten worse over time.

It’s been said countless times: the problem is Communication (and/or lack thereof). A skilled Mod who actually understood the game and had the necessary dedication would diffuse most of these situations before they escalated.

In this particular instance, if a Mod had tackled this question when it was indirectly asked a week before it happened (they were tagged and didn’t bother replying), this may not even have happened to begin with.

Even things like the nonexistent QA would be significantly more tolerable if we had a Mod who was present, understood the problems, and communicated bidirectionally without dodges.

So this is just another iteration on a periodically increasing cycle, that will have no end until the evidenced root cause is solved.
:blush: :vulcan_salute:
#GoWPhilosophy

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I stopped spending back when 3.0 came out (I think?) when the nerfing was just too much to tolerate. It was whenever Gems were removed from LTs and might have coincided with the Statue nerf as well (blue statue nerfed from 590 to 390…which was actually a buff because the original nerf was worse) but I can’t be arsed to look up the patch notes.

I support paying for F2P you enjoy. I only play one other F2P and I make small purchases there from time to time to show support. I’m not one of “those” people who says “it’s free!!” - I do believe in supporting quality products because it’s the only way we will ever see more of the same quality of product.

IP2 has really put their foot in it on this, but it’s well-documented that only a tiny percentage of players even use the forums/discord/game social media. It’s up to us to make sure our fellow players understand exactly what happened in this case. The only way we’ll get the company to notice is to hit the bottom line and those of us who already quit spending for other assorted reasons aren’t going to have an effect.

This dev response has been awful. I’m sure it’s the suits pulling the strings, but for the love of Pete…if I were a dev I’d feel about an inch tall right now at what I’m doing to the players.

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I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again now - drop rates are sacrosanct. This would include keeping your players properly informed of what they can and can’t pull before they attempt to pull it. This is in contrast to the numerous other issues this game has, many which are frustratingly lax at getting fixed, are not on the same level as drops. Yes, I get irritated at all that stuff too, and yes, I really wish it would get fixed, and yes, some of them I really find an affront to the concept of game design, but drop rates are your bread and butter. These are the worst type of issues to have and even worse when you don’t give a proper resolution to them.

My personal interpretation of this when this started was this was something that was intended to help players out by extending the exclusives into event chests. Unfortunately, this meant to them removing a drop from event chests due to the mythic being exclusive in other chests - something that has never happened before in Gems of War history. There was no documentation to even hint that Weaver would not be present in event chests during the first half of the week before people opened chests and reported it, not in game, not on support sites, and only afterward in a response post buried in an unrelated thread.

Fundamentally what is not getting communicated here is that changing the drop table on purpose and failing to directly and appropriately communicate this when there is no way for players to do their due diligence and determine something is or is not in the drop pool is for all intents and purposes the same thing as something not being in the drop table due to a bug. The have the same outcome - due to your negligence, people are gambling on getting (sometimes with real money) a prize that is not in the prize pool.

Now, allow me to present a less-than-charitable interpretation of this:

  1. There were at one point tools that allowed players to do their due-dilligence through third party API access because the severs were sending logs of chest contents. After calling out drop issues multiple times, these tools were eventually removed. There was no evidence before this point of them ever being incorrect, and in fact they were used to double check many of the drop issues and both save people some grief ahead of time. ​This was before the (vastly inferior) “drop rate” preview was added to chest screens, where it is impossible to tell if something is or is not in chests, and was, famously, blatantly incorrect (which did have a favorable resolution at least… eventually). Before this post (and during the fix) they were claimed to be “correct” multiple times.
  2. When confronted over not properly communicating AW being removed from chests during the first part of the week it was stated that it was both an old change and it was in response to player feedback. Others were quick to point out that four years ago, there were no more than one mythic in any given kingdom. and such a change would have been irrelevant at that time since no kingdom had more than one kingdom in the event key pool at any given time until years after that, and this is the only overlap of such since.

It isn’t hard to see here how this could be interpreted as gaslighting in an attempt to cover up mistakes and avoid responsibility. The worse interpretation given the facts would be intentional fraud with malice of forethought, and while I don’t personally believe this, I have to admit that a lot of these issues (and the way they are dealt with after the fact) stretch the concept of Hanlon’s Razor to the breaking point.

Unfortunately, I can’t pledge to stop spending on GoW until this is addressed I already have (I have not ever bought anything since campaigns were introduced because of this) because campaigns introduced “timed exclusives” you could only get by paying money that are becoming less and less possible to even collect at all after the fact (think about how hard an individual tarot will be to pull when there are 13 of them sharing the same tiny corner of the drop pool, even with GAP, and that these are going to likely gate mythic collections from here on out). While I know this is seen as “normal” to alot of people playing free to play games, the moving across this particular line was a huge red flag in a sea of monetization progressions checkered with them. But thats a subject for another thread.

I’m almost convinced at this point that they do a coin flip to determine which issues that they will properly compensate.

Devs, if you bother reading this, let me reiterate, this is not a “player entitlement” issue. You have a resource you can charge money for to get random loot, you removed a drop from said random loot without properly communicating. There has to be at least some instances where you have actively defrauded paying customers and not just consumed “digital goods”. Maybe not to a standard that can be upheld in court, but you really don’t want the reputation that this is how you operate.

It is not impossible to get something closer to a favorable result here. Rollbacks being “too hard” is not on us. Not having the support staff to individually address these issues for a full resolution is not on us. If you are looking for suggestions about an “easy” way to give “appropriate” compensation, the following was already floated - have a soulforge recipe that consumes Archproxy and gives Weaver. Anybody using keys to pull Weaver would have at least had to roll “a mythic” before having the 50/50 shot at Weaver if both were in the pool as all prior evidence would have suggested they would be, so allowing someone to just swap them would be slightly player favorable. Anyone who could have pulled Weaver during this period and at least hit the mythic roll would just be afforded to have the opportunity of them choosing the one they were after, it wouldn’t affect anyone that wasn’t happy with what they got (since there was already a documented chance to get Archproxy here too, the issue is that there was no documentation that AW would be removed). Anyone that didn’t receive at least Archproxy… you wouldn’t have ever rolled Weaver due to how the drop rates work internally so you aren’t entitled to a copy here because you weren’t directly affected (and I say directly because any droprate miscommunication or error affects EVERYBODY). This reaches the most people affected by the miscommunication while “giving away” the least amount extra.

In closing, so long as the discourse remains on this forum, they can just ignore it until it dies out. I recommend discussing this on other platforms. Again, I remind people do not harass whatever point of contact you may get (if you get any), but more people need to be aware of what happened, the extent of how bad it is because of what it represents, and why the “compensation” put forth right now is completely unacceptable. Reach out

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If enough players feel this way, nothing is going to change. This was likely their hope behind the timed exclusives anyway.

Taking over a year to craft Zuul broke my “I need all the things” urge. I’ve never bought a pa$$. Hopefully these kinds of behaviors can break other peoples’. The company can F off with their FOMO pressure.

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Clarified my post to say that “I can’t stop spending money because I already have because campaigns”, the text made it seem like the other thing. This is a particular psychological trap I refuse to even engage with because I already know I am extremely susceptible to loss aversion and it would be way too easy to convince myself to keep paying into it, or any future similar packs. Its such an effective trap that I can know exactly how it works but were I to engage in it even recognizing how it works probably would have a hard time stopping to spend money. All purchases before this point were only on things I felt I was accelerating to something I would have other felt was a reasonable bar for playtime, or completely frivolous things (for example, buying a vault key pack for every vault key I got during that period when I don’t really use vault keys, or weekly gems when even back then I was pushing 20k+, now 150k+).

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You have 10 weeks to make a purchase. If enough people wait then Infinity Plus 2 will feel the crunch way more than you will.

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I’m trying to clarify that I already haven’t bought any of the campaign packs because of the psychological trap associated, not that I “have to” here. So I can’t pledge to “stop spending” because that already happened, and correcting this issue can’t make me “start spending” again. Sorry for the derail.

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Thank you for that. And yes, I saw this coming when campaign pa$$es were first announced. It’s cheap and a “no-brainer” after being trained for years that mythics had a “value” of $50 (path to glory, for example) I’m not surprised people tripped over themselves to not miss out. It was completely by design and given that this is the 5th campaign they likely have a whole army of loyal “subscribers” at this point…because let’s face it, this is essentially a subscription.

Anyways, thank you again. Sorry for my minor soapbox moment…stepping back off of that now!

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The only reason I can see for them not resolving the issue properly is because they think it will blow over anyway, and because they know forum only has a small amount of players on it.

And even then I still don’t understand why they dig in their heels so much.

Instead of the half off weaver, just let players craft weaver consuming Yvendra. Make it a recipe that only works one time if you’re scared of people getting too many weavers from their Yvendras (as if). Make it limited for a week like you are planning with the half off one.

Could someone who got two Yvendras from other than event keys craft a weaver then? Sure.

But it’s not like anyone is asking for an easy access Zuul Goth.

And who does it really hurt if someone gets weaver for Yvendra without having spent event keys?

You’ll still have hundreds of players who used up their event keys for weaver, and probably only a handful who got two Yvendras, don’t have a weaver, and will want to make the trade.

The whole thing baffles me.

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I don’t mind a subscription to a game I enjoy. It’s not even that expensive. You get some extra stuff, mostly things you can very well live without or with getting later.

Call it season pass or campaign pass or whatever else. You can still play without getting it. Pretty well, too. Progression is slower but still…

There are so many issues at hand that bother me, though…

I just wish they’ll come around again at some point, hopefully sooner than later.

Work with the player base, make people happy… Happy people spend more on the thing they enjoy. And even if I was incorrect here, they will definitely talk greatly about the game - this is how I found it January 1st 2020 when I started playing - and will recommend it to players. That’s certainly worth more than an AW, no?

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ADDICTED people spend more. The funny thing about these pa$$es is this may be the first real instance of non-whales showing a noticeable impact on the bottom line through sheer volume.

A true “whale” in video game terms could be someone who is independently wealthy, but is more likely to be someone who struggles with addiction and may or may not have the disposable income.

Many years ago I worked a job booking hotel rooms and event tickets for a casino chain in the US. The number of times I was asked “do you guys cash child support checks” or “do you guys take food stamps” or “do you guys cash [insert benefit program here] checks” was utterly depressing.

The gambling industry (which includes gacha/“GOTCHA” games) is predatory as all get out.

[edit] I was apparently using a type of markdown that hid some text, replaced that with square brackets so the sentence makes more sense.

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The thing about the season pass is that you know exactly what you get. Okay, you’ll also get keys to gamble - and yes, gamble mechanics are predatory - but like buying weapons or specific troops, it says exactly what’s in there.

There is always a portion of people whose habits are unhealthy. And of course this game is there to make money and they do prey on addiction.

Addicted people will likely keep spending, no matter what.

But people who usually buy stuff to support a game they like are the people I meant - make those folks unhappy and they’ll stop supporting the game.

What I don’t get is how the way they handle the AW thing is supposed to work for either group.

It’s not like addicted people can now spend money on event keys to open more chests for weaver. They can’t directly buy weaver for real money. They might not be able to get the 2k diamonds even if they spend. So no money there.

People who are not addicted and unhappy with the solution are way more likely to stop spending while people happy with a good solution might buy the next nice thing because they still have that good feeling of having been treated well and they want to support that (and want more of that good feeling).

I’m VIP 6 a bit lower than others here but still a spender and was buying the campaign pass every campaign and may have even upgraded to elite plus when the power orb was added but I stopped spending a cent on this game last year when the warbands came out. I even stopped playing when endgamers got screwed but I came back when GaP came out. Ever since they added war coins as a reward for finishes kingdom quests but refused to give any to people that have already done the quests I will never spend a single cent again.

For a while now all the devs care about is money and it’s getting pretty obvious. When kingdoms rewards were changed a couple of years ago you couldn’t buy the rewards and the people that already completed the kingdom quests got the rewards mailed out but with war coins they sold them in the shop for real money so people had to pay cash if they wanted them all right away. Their excuse of them being mainly for beginners was rubbish as endgamers can really use the extra banners. It is the same in this situation where they should be refunding event keys or exchanging mythics but if they make it craftable the people desperate for it that don’t have the diamonds may start buying the daily or at least the Sunday $5 dungeon deals.

This game and forum has been going downhill for a while. From updates with no content and only including ways to milk more money from players like shrines, poor communication, quick nerfs but very long bug fixing time, bug infested updates and flat out lying to the community.

AW not being in event chests and that being intended is a lie when you look at the help center articles written by the devs themselves. This isn’t even the first time they have lied to the players. Back when the Cedric medal was nerfed there was 3 different reasons in game and on the forums.

Nothing will change and it’s just going to get worse in the future. The devs just do not care about the game like they used too and now it’s all about money. Why bother telling the players the truth about their stuff ups, fixing bugs quickly or properly compensating players when the devs aren’t even really communicating with the players anymore and 99% of the paying players continue buying stuff no matter what the devs do. There will always be people paying $5 for the Sunday dungeon pack to help get their missing mythics and always be people buying campaign passes to avoid missing out on those pets, tarrots and mythics and it looks like might be a new pass coming as well. Why should the devs care about people on the forum being upset when thousands are still regulary paying money in to the game and the devs have basically abandoned this place. Ever since Salty left they don’t even bother posting offical new threads for the weekly event. The only thing they even bother about is reminding people the campaign is ending and you only have a week left to give them money.

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Yeah, I follow. And if a significant number of pa$$-buyers actually decide not to buy another pa$$, this may have an appreciable result on the bottom line. I hope it does.

The forum is a fart in the wind to the people who make the financial decisions because it represents such a small segment of the playerbase. Sure, a couple times things have gotten stirred up badly enough here (and possibly on other social media as well) that a few decisions have been altered - the original blue statue nerf for one, the Sunspear nerf for another…and heck, even this attempt at “reparations” with next week’s reduced crafting cost for AW. So it IS possible to make a big enough of a fuss to get noticed…it’s just very, very rare. The company doesn’t need to care about this forum because by and large, no real damage is done by the people who visit here. Otherwise, they’d pay more attention.

Yes, they’ve had a year to develop a loyal subscriber base who has become accustomed to cheap Mythics and a pile of goodies that by design is an absurdly good value for the spend. The pa$$ is supposed to be a no-brainer, and it worked brilliantly. I’d have not hesitated to buy one either if I were still spending money on the game. After a year of cultivating FOMO, how many people are truly going to be willing to give that up? And that (along with the whales continuing to whale) is likely what is being banked on here.

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I’ve been firmly at VIP 6 for several years. I had no intention of spending more on this game, particularly as the options were awful and I didn’t need them in order to continue playing. The fact I have spent no more money had not a lot to do with my level of support.

This latest nonsense (which does not affect me personally) is just yet another incompetent step.

  • The content I’ve been seeing is not fun or useful.
  • Bugs and intolerable design choices take ages to address (unless they literally break the game).
  • Testing is not done even remotely close to a satisfactory degree.
  • The staffers who actually gave us actionable information have long since withdrawn from public view.
  • Things that they decide leverage things to the players too much get locked down immediately while things that hurt the players get left alone? That bias? That’s sort of to be expected from developers but it still SUCKS…

So this latest thing doesn’t really surprise me.

As I continue to say, I’m biding my time to walk away. I effectively just want to see the last of the delve factions. I’ve got less time in my life to do this (and other more fun things as well), so something’s gotta give and its gonna be GoW unless they do something really amazingly good to keep my attention here.

(Also: I stream at least one game with some regularity, these days. GoW will never ever be on my stream. Just food for thought.)

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This. Before a little thoughts were put into the troops. Everyone remember when Ragnagord was in the store for Glory and people went totally nuts for finally having another great exploder in the game 5 years ago. This is what people want to see, at least something useful from time to time…

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To be fair, this campaign’s weapon and mythic are really fun. I like Yvendra, too

The last useful glory troop was night spider, I think? Unless I forgot one…

This week’s has been fine in the events but it’s not like she’s great overall. And all the Guardians were meh at best.

Anyway, I wonder why it’s such an issue with AW. I remember that there was a bug way back that used up troops in teams if you ascended all troops.

I wrote a ticket and got an extra Tesla or two, can’t remember - I asked if it was possible to undo it or get one Tesla is what I recall. And that made me incredibly happy.

Was quite some time ago… Before they removed the option to write tickets from inside the game…