I'll be probably in the minority, but I'm not a fan of the raid stuff


#1

I’m a level 1000+player who has paid quite a bit into the game, and accomplished even more for free. So I’m end-game, and speaking only from an end-game standpoint.

My biggest gripe comes with the meta of the game. Dawnbringer/Nyx=everything. Seals/glory? Arena. Gold? PVP. Gems? That team anywhere. So when I see an event that forces me to use troops that are otherwise fodder for whatever resource I need to grind, I get excited… at first…

Now, looking at it, to do the max damage costs gems. Gems cost real life money. For end game players like me, gems are everywhere. But I’m going to spend them for a chance to get a troop I like in a chest, or to craft something at some point.

What I’m not going to do is spend them on troops I don’t particularly care about, that for one week are going to do damage to a boss, for rewards that do not begin to return the investment needed to reach a leader board position that would even begin to compensate for the amount I’ve have to spend to get there in the first place.

Probably unpopular opinion, I mean, the system is cool and all… but it is designed to suck money, and I have given quite a few dollars to the game because I loved it as it was. Free to play with an option to progress quicker. Now it is free to play, but the option isn’t so much an option as it is a forceful push.

New players who invest money, sure, they may enjoy this. As for this vet, thanks, but no thanks. I’ll just continue my grind for your over $2000 weapon (seriously, do the math on how many souls/gems you’d have to buy to craft DB), and once I get it, I’ll continue to invest in modes/troops that I care about (which are quite a few, with a lot of them not anywhere close to competitive).


#2

PS: I will add if you enjoy this raid/boss system, I am happy for you. I am not going to start or argue with anybody over my opinion, I just posted it such as a discussion may stem from it. Again, if you love this new feature, I am happy for you. I am not here to take away your enjoyment and don’t let my opinion alter yours.

Just wanted to give my .02 on the matter is all.


#3

I am a fan of the raid stuff but then also not a fan.

I simply love the mechanic of it. I dislike you can only get more sigils if you shell out gems for them. So the leaderboard is going to be filled with pay to play players, or those in the very top guilds that gain gems from things like Guild Wars… While the free players or the lesser guilds will get limited chances and ability to do well overall. This could have been offset if they would have allowed the sigil packs to be purchased with glory vs gems. Though doubt they would consider changing the currency requirement. A free player or a player in a lesser guild does start off like everyone with some sigils. And can even buy the cheaper gem packs for some more chances. After that is expired then they have to wait for a day about for 4 more chances. As it stands the better rewards are if you are able to use more sigils. And a free player or a player in a lesser guild will not have that ability.

Ranked PvP & leaderboard I get because anyone can do well in it.

Guild Wars & leaderboard I get because any guild can do well in it.

Raid & leaderboard I don’t fully get. As only the top guilds or paid players will show up in it. Which ousts the thinking GoW had set before. You can do anything in GoW freely or paid and it wont affect anything. Now they finally introduced a mode really only for those who can shell out the gems for the sigils and to do better.

Since there are more lesser guilds than top guilds you can be sure there will be a huge upset there over this change in game practice. It really does stink of ‘shut up and give me your money’. Hopefully the collective voice of the community can alter this gem sinkhole.

Amazing way to open up a fun new mode then shoot it in the foot if you ask me.

@Sirrian


#4

the mechanic of pay gems to get enough sigil to compete at lb is disgusting hope isnt their new outlook on how additions to the game should go in the future!Im not a fan of any capped game modes at all rlly, even dungeons should be able to play as much as you want,with only the first 3 giving jewels ofc since i can understand capping some resources but not locking entire game modes off after playing a certain amount xD


#5

I’m a fan of the game mode, but not a fan on the tier costs relative to the highscore rewards.

From what I can tell so far more sigils can only be earned within raids. Since people who buy more packs have more battles, they will automatically have a higher score.

The entirety of the leaderboard is only going to be people who spent for tier 6 or 7, but the leaderboard itself doesn’t even cover that cost if making 1st.

At least for Guild Wars the top several prizes would pay back the initial cost, with the top few profiting a great amount.


#6

I think this is the main flaw with the raid boss mode - we may all start on a level playing field, but we definitely won’t end the week that way. You’re forced to either commit resources (if you can afford to), or fall behind by default.


#7

@HootyMcOwlFace Yes and this is a huge change from how it already uses its other leaderboards and modes. GoW used to be about any member regardless can do anything in it. This mode suggests they want to offer modes specifically to top guilded players or pay to play players more heavily. And this mode seems very fun, so its a sad direction. I don’t mean to sound ungrateful or negative, but GoW has currently just been disappointing me in the direction its heading. What made me love playing GoW even spending money because I loved it, was because of this anyone can do anything kind of thinking. I know if this keeps going in that direction I may stop playing. As that was the main reason that GoW pulled me in. I love and have loved its anyone can do anything approach. As funny as it is GoW had one of the best thoughts on being a truly Free to Play game. Most F2P are free to test out, but to stay or be competitive you have to pay. With GoW it was free or pay, do as you felt, but both could get to the same end. In my mind what a true Free to Play game should be. Maybe a little geeky here but Larry Wall who created the language PERL had a purpose. He wanted a language that was easy to use but also hard to master. Effectively opening it up to anyone of any level. Without barring or causing restrictions in how anyone progressed in that path. GoW had done just that but with a game using the Free to Play concept.

@Sirrian


#8

General concept of raids = very good.

Execution of the cost in gems in order to unlock the best rewards and rank highest on the leaderboards = terrible.

Raid leaderboard is essentially pay to win now.


#9

I hate games where you have to pay to win. I have no desire to spend 1000+ gems on a temporary game mode unless the gains are worth it.

The rewards don’t seem anywhere near worth it. 2 orbs is ok? Just not enough to have me spend 1000’s of gems. Pure cash grab.


#10

Vote with your wallet and don’t spend any gems for tier 3 and above.


#11

Finally, welcome to the " pay to win" world… Good job dev …
unnamed%20(2)


#12

I agree.

There are certain things about raid I like. The fact that I don’t feel obligated to stop by every day and can just let sigils stack. The fact that it’s not about one guild getting 1500 gems a week and the rest getting basically almost-nothing.

But the rewards offered in raid are abysmally bad (compared to GW, which is what we are used to) and the cost for new things are abysmally high. I bought the weapon this week - let’s be honest, no one will be able to craft every new weapon in the forge, given the high cost - with gems and it’s actually a really bad weapon and while the troop is nice for raid, it’s just for this raid. I will never pay for anything in the shop again, however, it does irk me - I like a complete weapon collection and having to say goodbye to it pretty much sucks.

However, new players… they don’t have the gems. They won’t have three/four troops of every kingdom traited (heck, I’m close to level 1200 and I’m going in with Liang and Xiong untraited). This mode is absolutely unfriendly to new players and a cash sap for higher players. It’s just… no.
I like the idea. I like PvE much more than PvP. But why should I invest anything in this game mode? The rewards are not worth it at all. And with that I mean both the raid rewards and the shop stuff.

My gems are for chests and the Sunday forge bundle only.

And the P2W direction the game suddenly took disgusts me.

It’s so sad that so many things in February were nothing but horrible… I thought it was just me and the new lore, but the game mode followed suit and yup, I’ll check back next week for the other new mode and if that is just like raid in terms of “rewards”/costs, then that’s the last nail in the already-nailed coffin for me. I basically already quit (which is why I’m not here much anymore) and just wait to see the new 3.3. content before fully saying goodbye.


#13

I’m mixed on it… P2W is ALWAYS a business proposition that EVERY company would love to have.
Lots of games though find an unhealthy " balance_ " that they think works.
Usually what it does is what it’s always done and gives the top tier people HEAPS of advantages and rewards that last forever, whilst driving those with less means, $$$, to get miles behind and STAY there.
I’ve been quite lucky in my card collecting and have 3 mythics at ~190ish, and single traits on my 2 main teams. so I can at least do the dungeon and get those “rewards” that I have to PAY for … WHY??? rewards should be just that, REWARDS, not a purchased reward.
So the new game mode just makes more unwinnable ‘rewards’ and is directed at the end of game players, or those with large wallets.
Good going devs.


#14

As far as I know far, nobody force anyone to buy the Tiers. You think that the rewards are crap? Cool you will not need them, so you can keep your ressource.

There are 150 gems given for the 750 troops killed event… just sayin’.


#16
Unsolicited rant about the game economy

This is why the ingame economy is going to continue going on being stagnant despite their best efforts to stimulate it by enticing people to spend gems. We’ve been conditioned that the ultimate prize is base mythics. Base mythics inevitably cost a ton of gems to chase. If you can currently reach the goal of obtaining base mythics, that is your ultimate goal. Cash purchases of gems are measured by what a gem can get you and not how rare gems are to get. When gems = troops and troops = mythics, then everyone’s mental math on the worth of a gem is what it will get you in terms of mythics. They’ll never sink someone already at this level far enough to not think of them in this terms, only slow newer players pace from getting to that point, and even that only happens because ignorance is bliss. But anyone invested in the game to actually start collecting will naturally be guided to a point where they can see how little impact purchases have, have their bubble popped, and most of them will stop spending entirely.

Gem sinks that don’t give prizes comparable to mythics won’t work as long as people can use them to get mythics and have to worry about missing a mythic and the price point going up. Done right, gem sinks could actually good for the economy as a whole, but the game can’t offer everything the fastest, cheapest, and least restrictive for gems because this is all gems can be. The other side, influx of gems, also needs to be addressed, particularly with cash purchases, which they seem to be vehemently against touching and trying to build around despite having increasingly bloated numbers attached to the newer systems. Even in comparison with these new features, 50 bucks worth of gems buys you not a whole lot. Pay-to-win-systems have the common sense to be affordable and this doesn’t even correctly hit this mark. Also, I want to pull my hair out over the fact that they put gems as leaderboard prizes once again in a system that encourages you to spend gems to get on the leaderboard. That isn’t how to implement a proper sink other than being bait of the highest order for anyone ignorant to think they can use gems to get onto the leaderboard without having to go all in and only partially recoup their losses maybe.

The reaction to how this mode has gem sinks very telling to just how bad the in-game economy has gotten and how attempts to “fix” it keep making it worse. The way to a healthy game economy is to stop having everyone scared that they will miss something by spending some gems here and there and lead into a resource death spiral because things inexplicably cost more to target and are harder to find and may no longer be relevant when you find them after they are new. Then, when the playerbase is given opportunities to spend gems, they might actually do so instead of having the collective attitude of I must spend every single gem I ever get ever on troops and nothing else because this is the best way to get troops. Because this attitude isn’t wrong. It’s the logical conclusion based on how the game’s reward structure is designed.

So… ahem… onto the actual game mode.

The biggest disappointment is the whole “no energy systems” attitude of the dev team has gone straight out the window and into the nearest dumpster with this. You can’t paint this at anything but an energy system. Not that energy systems are inherently bad, but this is kind of a betrayal of one of the core design philosophies. This is also one of the “bad” types of energy systems, the only “good” part being that you can stack however much you earn until the end of the week, with the drawbacks being you have an extremely low amount of daily energy compared to what is buyable at exorbitantly high price points. A good energy system encourages you to spread out your playtime but allows you to binge play during certain periods while steering you away from burnout. This one does not of that and instead focuses on gating plays to sink currency. An energy system that is entirely about currency into plays should at least have consistently greater rewards for being successful at those plays (eg., currency + time + merit should always yield greater rewards than currency used without time or merit), but this system does not do that either, tying individual rewards to the leaderboard treadmill. Guild Wars was tolerable with limited entries because it was all about only having the limited entries so that “every battle mattered”, and also it was a clone of PvP where you were handcuffing yourself by choice to fit an arbitrary scoring system.

The mode itself looks interesting from the team building standpoint, but I really wanted something different to do all the time if I choose to, not something that feels like another obligation while everything else I can do doesn’t feel like I’m getting anywhere doing it.

As for the leaderboard itself, wont be on it, don’t care. Competition for any sort of thing like this with an underlying energy system tends to work like this - its a treadmill sink for a collection of the top players to incentivize them to be pay to play. The difference here is that the hard bottleneck is not usually cash spent and you reach a level where progress in the given system is actually only possible with a smaller and smaller group of people. Gems of War… simply doesn’t work like this. Individual battles are small scale and in and of themselves largely meaningless as a way to measure skill. There are hundreds if not thousands of people with nearly identical collections with respect to how any of these events can go and similar levels of skill bonus. Practically anybody can beat a given setup at least sometimes because thats what the game’s mechanics allow. Leaderboards in Gems of War have always mostly measured things other than “how good you are at Gems of War” (even if skill at the game is a component to a point, it is not often the deciding factor), and this one is no different.

Also, huge missed opportunity to monetize by not having a cash only item that grants a couple sigils to your entire guild. They are already pretty much there, why not go all the way? This would actually be much preferable to the whole leaderboards thing to most people, as it monetizes a way to make progress for your whole guild. If not that, some way to grant sigils to your guild to rally and reach the guild goal rather than it being just about the personal leaderboard chase. That kinda undercuts what the mode is supposed to be about.

tl;dr:

  • Team/Fight Mechanics: looks interesting. Wish this was an alternative to choose to use my time whenever, instead of a weekly obligation with a limit.
  • Gem Sinks: Need more of them in the game for a healthy economy, but they won’t be effective to driving economy health for long term players because mythics (even the draw of pulling them now vs soulforge drudgery) remain the better prize. Poor execution.
  • Energy system: poorly executed, disappointing. Also, would work much better if the rewards for feeding gems into energy, assuming successful use of said energy, were desirable enough to be considered at a value above the amount of gems put in but not in actual gems, but they aren’t (see above)
  • Rewards table: orbs as drops are the main valuable draw from this mode, orbs are random, and only a quarter of them have enough “value” to be a comparable prize to spending gems (see above again)
  • Leaderboard: Meh. Locking it behind energy behind gems wasn’t a good idea because it was obviously going to be divisive. Pretty much impossible to have a purely skill-testing leaderboard in Gems of War anyways. Both irritating and counterproductive to have gem prizes on here, again.
  • Monetization: They need to do better. Again. This has all the bad taste of a cash grab without actually being one.

tl;tl;dr:

  • Like the mechanics. Love the concept. Execution is lacking.

#17

@Mithran Beat me to the punch for a very well executed break down of what I see here in Raid Mode, but I will add these tidbits for whatever they are worth.

  1. For those of you who are complaining that this mode is P2W…, while I can’t disagree exactly, RELAX! What exactly are they “winning”? The pay IN for reward OUT is sooo out of balance that if somebody is foolish enough to blow gems on it, go for it, or if they are so wealthy that they can buy gems to that extent… please PM, cause I have student loans and medical bills and I can help you put that money to REALLY good use. Just be grateful that modes like GW where there IS a big payout in GEMS is NOT P2W in the slightest. And for that matter any of the FREE modes of gem generation are neither gated, “energy mechaniced”, or P2W exclusive. So, chill… :sunglasses:

  2. For full disclosure, today I went to Tier IV, probably wont do it again, but I only needed 7 Arcanes to unlock all traits and since it is the Premiere of the Mode I figured, why not. This had me starting with 13 Sigils. I beat Minion 1 and Boss 1, Minion 2 and Boss 2, and I did one Boss Raid against Zuul Goth, for an expenditure of 11 sigils. When I stopped because I HAD to get to work, I was more than shocked to find that I had 15 sigils remaining! The Valravens drop with enough regularity so far that it seems possible to get a decent amount of battles without having to go to far into the shop. (Buying Tiers)

  3. I have said this so many times, I know some of you will be able to say it with me, but I think the TRUE issue is that the VALUE of Gems is so different between the player and dev mentality.

Here it is from the Horse’s mouth. Now, to be fair, I spent 500 gems and received 6 copies of an Epic troop, a unique weapon, and 8 arcanes, plus other fluff. (which the devs value very much :wink: ) Which again, in an effort to be fair is pretty reasonable return on a 500 gem investment, especially for a collector like myself.

THAT BEING SAID…

The issue lies in the nerf to LTs and the removal of gems from a year ago. We have now reached a point where the rate of acquisition is so limited and the rate of expenditure so accelerated that there is an inarguable gap and disparity. Again, the argument must be made that this IS their PREMIUM currency and there probably needed to be some disparity as the gem hoarding days of years gone by were ludicrous. BUT, now I think the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction.
And whether intended or not, when Free to Play members begin to see the gap widening INDEFINITELY… they don’t become Pay to Play members they become EX members.

Be careful devs! You may have unintentionally gone too far… :man_shrugging:


#18

Well said.
A special remark for your first point: People who don’t want or can’t spend gems shouldn’t feel obligated in the slightest to do so. You and your guildmates are still able to obtain a few gems from the rewards, 50 by closing the 7th portal, as the Valravens are a way to get more sigils for free. So as long as everyone plays i think it’s pretty ok if you didn’t spent any gems at all.

For you second point: I still think they should increase the amount of “Godslayer” cards and rework the rewards from each tier. For Shentang it’s almost an “okish” investiment because it’s a new kingdom and all, but when we eventually start a Raid on a Kingdom like Broken Spire all the cards that are not the exclusive “Godslayer” will more than likely be… useless… in a sense that endgamers don’t need them and newish players won’t be able to buy many tiers anyway… So devs, please think about this if you haven’t yet.


#19

I really like this game mode as a level 1000 midgame player (seriously, “what troops have I traited” has more to do with status than level) and I’m overall positive, but also want to see how far my casual guild gets before I really solidify my opinion. Here’s what I’m thinking.

This mode represents a slow trickle of new content, and the first Raid Boss isn’t all-around a stellar example. What do I mean?

Well, think about how it’s kingdom-specific. This has some implications:

  • How many kingdoms are there? 32? If the game cycles kingdoms and doesn’t repeat, we should expect 96 weeks before seeing Zuul’goth again.
  • This also implies there could be up to 32 craftable boss troops over the next 96 weeks. Maybe Zuul’goth is one of the worst. It’ll be 3 weeks before we find out.
  • Given today’s available stuff, there could be multiple new weapons per raid. This is a big new design space.

At first I was really salty about the 500 gem price tag for the shop tiers, but now I see the progression is from “spend some gems to get a helpful troop” through "spend 500 to mythic/trait that troop. This has some implications as more raids happen:

  • You (presumably) can’t use previous boss killers if a kingdom hasn’t repeated.
  • Mid-game players get to decide between farming traitstones or spending a bunch of gems to max the boss killer.
  • Some kingdoms already have teams arguably strong enough to make a boss killer redundant.

I think as more craftable troops are implemented (and assuming that’s the pattern), late game players will have their hands full trying to acquire orbs to pay for them.

This mode is still very “rich get richer” because people who manage to have maxed teams for the week’s kingdom are far more effective than people like me, who get to field a bunch of scrubs. HOWEVER, I think leading with Shentang made this problem look worse than it is. There will be weeks where I can consider using The Dragon Soul or Psion or other troops in which I’ve invested heavily.

The thing that sort of makes me frown at this point is I feel like it makes life for midgame players MORE complicated. Now I have to balance my desire to buy gem keys vs. the concept of rapidly maxing a potentially useful new troop every week. Maybe I’m just not at a point in the game where 500 gems is easy to get yet, I should probably start using a tribute timer.

But all in all I sort of like this game mode, though I think by the end of the week throwing myself at 5-10 matches daily and losing just to get some boss damage in will get very old. :confused:

TL;DR

I see a lot of good potential. I think Shentang and Zuul’goth were a weak start to raids, possibly so they can save a really exciting raid for after some low point in player morale. So I’m withholding a lot of criticism until I see what raids 2 and 3 are like.


#20

The rewards for the cost are ridiculous. Not even a quarter of what gw pays the top 5 or so brackets.


#21

Will event mythics be pullable do you think with tier rewards, ie: broken spire as your example