Entangle vs Attack Modifier Issues (Recap/Update/Suggestions)

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Hi GoW team,

I know there were various technical issues with how Entangle and Attack Modifiers reported and addressed in the past, and that at some point it was decided to just let any Attack buff outright remove Entangle rather than unleashing a tornado of glitches. I was at peace with that, and simply ignored Entangle, for the most part, as a result.

However, I’ve just stumbled upon a related issue that I wasn’t aware of, and which makes this status effect even less useful, and even arguably beneficial to the target in some cases.

Along with Hunter’s Mark, this is one of the weakest status effects out there as it is, and I really feel it’s too bad, because it could be a great and much needed game mechanic if fixed or tweaked to become reliable.

I’ve done a thorough search in older threads (I hope), but could only find ones from several patches ago, so I’d like to start a fresh one in which we could list and discuss those issues. I hope it’s okay.

1/ Recap

So, recap of what (I think) is already established:

  • While Entangled, a troop temporarily has 0 Attack
  • Bonus damage from 4+ Skull matches still work even if the top troop is Entangled
  • Entangle gets removed by Cleanse
  • Entangle also removes itself within up to ten turns anyway (more often than not, one or two).
  • Any Attack BUFF on an Entangled troop will CLEANSE the Entangle status effect, on top of working as intended

2/ Update

Here’s what’s new (to me at least, and in the current version):

Spells to or from an Entangled troop, other than Attack Buffs… give a mixed bag of results, ranging from what one would expect to a complete waste of mana.

  • Spells that rely on a troop’s current Attack value get 0 from Entangled troops (Cyclops, Lamia, Faunessa etc)
  • Troop eaters (Black Beast, Kerberos, Hero with Black Manacles…) get 0 attack bonus from Entangled troops
  • Spells that steal Attack don’t work on Entangled Troops (Sylvasi, Sylvasi’s Blades, Gloom Leaf etc.)

These seem fair to me. The player who casts Entangle benefits from how these work, as opposed to when someone buffs the Attack of an Entangled troop.

Now the big reveal (for me) which motivated this thread in the first place (drums roll ^^). I currently have an “interesting” line-up in the Arena (read: awfully weak), which includes the Flesh Golem and the OwlBear. Here’s what happens when they cast their respective spells on the same target:

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The target doesn’t go to “-2 Attack”, it doesn’t lose Entangle and then get the debuff, it just stays Entangled for one more turn, and then it comes back with its full Attack after that.

  • An Attack DEBUFF on an Entangled troop does NOT Cleanse Entangle, on top of NOT working as intended

This seems like the worst of both worlds to me. If ALL Attack Modifiers removed Entangle, then at least we could make the calculated choice to apply a debuff to a troop which is likely about to lose Entangle anyway. If troops went into negative Attack values, well, it would be gimmicky and seldom useful, but at least a -2 Attack troop would do no damage even with a five Skulls match. Instead, casting Entangle on an enemy troop gives it immunity to your other debuff spells, whereas the enemy’s buff spells not only still work but can remove your Entangle at any time… :-/

3/ Suggestions

  • Make Entangle (and perhaps Hunter’s Mark, but that’s another story) sticky like Poison, so it requires a Cleanse effect (or, let’s be real, an Attack buff) to remove it.

If making Entangle actually sticky (requires a Cleanse) like Poison is deemed too much:

  • Instead of a cumulative 10% chance for the Entangle effect to be outright removed each turn, make it stick, but it wears off incrementally every turn. For instance, an Entangled Troop with 10 actual Attack would have 0 effective Attack the first turn, but it would become 1 Attack on the next turn, 2 Attack after that, and so on, until it reaches 10 again and the troop is no longer Entangled. If at any point Entangle is cast upon the same troop again, then it starts over from 0 Attack.

  • Make either ALL Attack Modifiers remove Entangle, buffs AND debuffs, or NONE, for consistency. I’d much prefer the latter, of course, but I understand it’s hard to code as is.

Thanks in advance for your consideration. If anyone would like to add to this topic, please do; I’m happy to update the OP accordingly if needed.

EDIT: Added examples to 2/ Update and one suggestion to 3/ Suggestions.

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Based on what you wrote, I’m interested in what would happen if Faunessa or Lamia cast their spell on an entangled tropp. I assume the spell would just be lost, with no damage taken?

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Yes, I’m pretty there would be no damage dealt and the mana would simply go to waste. I haven’t experienced it first hand, but it should work as it does with the Cyclops (who at least still has a 4 base damage).

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Very interesting… thanks for the great description, it was very easy to follow

We really need to rewrite the code for Entangle so that it works a little differently I think.
Troops should be able to buff & debuff their actual (hidden-by-entangle) Attack score while entangled with the expected result

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with the expected result being that they still can’t attack or use agile until entangle wears off?

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I used to go through support to send bug reports.

I sent one a long while ago stating that entangle prevented Sylvasi from stealing attack to entangled troops, I got answered that this was intended… Was it?

Will you try to rethink that while working on entangle?

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Yeah - I think it’s important (and common sense) that Agile can’t proc while Entangled!

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Just as equally important is the fact that the truth that is entangled can’t attack! Correct? Nice dodge by the way you must have the agile trait.

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Thanks for your reply, I’m glad you appreciated this report. What you describe here would be a great fix, if it can be implemented. It would make Entangle much more useful and consistent.

I still think it would need to be sticky to become a really powerful effect, especially in this True Shot meta. Maybe making it actually sticky like Poison would be too much, as it would mean a line-up without a Cleanse would almost always lose to Entangle line-ups. I also imagined a more progressive solution, although I’m not sure how realistic it would be to implement. Still, I’ll add it to the Suggestions in my opening post.

@Zelarith: Right now, as far as I’m aware:

  • Sylvasi’s spell on an Entangled Troop steals 0 Attack (as do Sylvasi Blades, Gloom Leaf etc.).
  • An Entangled Sylvasi casting his spell not only steals Attack as per normal, but also dispells Entangle

This works similarly to the other examples mentioned so far. In the first case, Sylvasi steals no Attack because there is none to steal, as the target has 0 Attack. In the second case, Sylvasi’s spell includes an Attack BUFF, which removes Entangle on top of working as usual. This is “as intended” as per what is currently implemented for those mechanics (although, as evidenced by this thread, this isn’t ideal).

@Machiknight: I’m not sure where you’re coming from with this train of thought. To the best of my understanding, what Sirrian describes would work like this:

Say your 10 Attack troop at the top is Entangled:

  • You match 3 Skulls = no damage done
  • You match 4 Skulls = 1 damage done
  • You cast a +2 Attack buff on it = the troop still has 0 Attack for now, BUT it will have 12 Attack if Cleansed
  • I cast a -4 Attack debuff on it = the troop still has 0 Attack for now, BUT it will now have 8 Attack if Cleansed

I actually don’t see what you mean by “can’t attack”. If your Entangled troop actually received Attack buffs with immediate effect while still being Entangled (eg in the example above, when you cast +2 Attack, it actually goes from 0 to 2 Attack right away), then sure, but it’s not what I think we’re suggesting here.

As for Agile, from a gameplay perspective, it doesn’t necessarily make immediate sense to me that it would be cancelled by Entangle, although this sounds extremely good and would be another step in the right direction to make Entangle more valuable. I do see how it makes sense from a roleplay/conceptual perspective: if the troop cannot move, it cannot dodge.

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What I mean is, increasing your attack does not cleanse the entangle.

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Okay, then this is in line with what Sirrian said.