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Doom Scrolls Valuation in the current state of the game

In the current state of the game, you must buy all tiers in ToD plus 3 of the tier seven to max the new weapon. So I’m going to break down what a new player starting today would need to do in order to catch up on all of the old doom weapons, and what that would cost based on the games current gem valuation.

There are currently 25 doomed weapons in the game, and it will take buying 19tier 7’s to max each old weapon. That is a total of 9500 gems for each weapon. That is a total of 237,500 gems to max all the current doom weapons for a new player to try and catch up.

The current valuation of gems in your shop… $99.99 for 1500 gems if you have no VIP.
237,500/1500 is… 158.33 purchases of the Motherload to get that many gems. Lets just round that down to 158.

So according to the devs… the current value of the 25 doom weapons is $15831.75

There are a lot of issues with doom scrolls and the inability to attain them, but this was a little eye opening when I was figuring up the cost to catch up maxing out the doom weapons.

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I explain to new players that doomed weapons are pretty much legacy items and they shouldn’t expect to be able to obtain and upgrade most of the best weapons in the game.

Shame, but that’s how the devs want it :man_shrugging:

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Given how two of the initial six doomed weapons have affixes that actively make them worse, and how they have been this way for, what, years now? I agree with the characterization of those weapons as legacy, and unfortunately not worth fretting over.

That said, even if a player wanted to upgrade some doomed weapons, they are not all created equal. The first set (doomskull creators) are worth upgrading—apart from the two you should leave at +6. If you are in a competitive guild for Guild Wars, it may be worth it to upgrade the books. And I while I like the idea of gem creation in this round of doomed weapons, the first one creates a storm that works against its gem creation—another pass from me on using or upgrading it.

So ultimately that’s one, maybe two, sets of doomed weapons players would benefit from upgrading. The rest can be consigned to the dustbin for now.

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Quoted for emphasis.

Especially since I think we can all still agree that even if the number is cut in half, assuming both books and originals are the only doomed weapons that are ever actually “worth it,” that the’d still not be worth nearly $10k.

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We really should have ToD every 4 weeks and move GW to every 11. Not only so we can get more scrolls but it would also put GW in a week of it’s own with no campaign event. It would also get rid of the slight advantage elite+ buyers currently get in GW.

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Not the topic of the thread—please make a different thread to discuss this, since there are definitely players who would disagree with this sentiment (myself included).

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I got bored and did some math. If you don’t ignore VIP bonuses, the cost comes down quite a bit. Starting from VIP 0, and including a first-time-buyer bonus of 1500 gems, you reach 237,500 gems after your 90th purchase of The Motherlode. You will have spent $9000 or so, and you will be VIP 20, so enjoy all those daily keys!

If you only want to maximize the two sets that I was calling “worth it”, you’d need 114,000 gems, which comes after your 47th purchase of The Motherlode. You would only be VIP 16 (tsk tsk).

And, of course, if you are crazy enough to do this you probably don’t care to wait for gem sales, but those would drop the buy-in even further. Still too rich for my blood, to be sure. (I also wasn’t including the 25 forge scrolls you get from ascending the tower during the week you go h.a.m. on the shop. That’s 8 purchases of Tier VII, or 1-2 Motherlodes for each of the six colors of scroll. So I guess it can be done for cheaper still.)

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Irrelevant. That’s an absurd amount of money to spend on a game, any game.

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Times like these that I’m happy to not be a collector. I’ve accepted that either I’ll eventually get everything, either due to sheer time spent or new game modes/updates), or that I won’t. Maybe they’ll eventually make forge scrolls craftable in soul forge, except their cost would be prohibitive for all but whales anyway.

If we take the doomed weapon currently in the forge, it costs:

  • 900 diamonds
  • 50k souls
  • 2000 rubies
  • 8 Celestial traitstones

That’s already a pretty steep cost to all but end-gamers and whales who have nothing else to spend diamonds or jewels on (assuming they’ve already crafted the pet food/deeds they need). So if/when we get forge scrolls in the soul forge, we should probably expect something equally prohibitive.

I’ll use pet food as an example since, unlike deeds, it doesn’t require a base material. Pet food costs 125 jewels and 1k souls. It takes 105 colored pet food to max out a pet. So that’s 13125 jewels and 105k souls per pet. Keeping in mind that this is a “farmable” resource, that’s pretty expensive.

Yet forge scrolls are immensely more valuable and rare than pet food. How much more valuable? Let’s assume twice as expensive. So at 250 jewels and 2k souls per forge scroll, and needing 55 per weapon, that’s 13750 jewels and 110k souls, which is about the cost to max one pet. That seems fair to me, and something they might even implement in the future. But likely they will bump it up even further, maybe twice that.

Honestly, even at a prohibitive cost of 500 jewels and 4k souls pet forge scroll, I think people will be happy that it’s somehow obtainable outside of ToD events. Because based on all the calculations in this thread, it’s nigh impossible to max it out, for those who need to.

For the sake of comparison, crafting a legendary weapon

A legendary weapon costs 600 jewels each of 2 colors (1200 total), 300 diamonds, 3 Celestials and 15k souls. Looks like we’re comparing apples and fish here, so I’ll break it down into shard cost.

Doomed Weapon:

  • 900 diamonds = 90k shards + 9k souls
  • 50k souls
  • 2000 rubies = 100k shards + 20k souls
  • 8 Celestial traitstones = 600 jewels = 30k shards + 6k souls
    Total: 220k shards + 85k souls

Legendary Weapon

  • 300 diamonds = 30k shards + 3k souls
  • 15k souls
  • 1200 jewels = 60k shards + 12k souls
  • 3 Celestial traitstones = 300 jewels = 15k shards + 3k souls
    Total: 105k shards + 33k souls

So doomed weapon costs about twice as much as a legendary weapon.

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I was a collector when I started playing the game. The release of Zuul broke me of that. It took me over a year to build up the Power Orbs to craft him.

GoW is part of a genre that tends to appeal to collectors. There’s a reason that the elite (lol) pa$$es and now Shrines are leaning hard into FOMO. FOMO is very, very profitable.

One of the best pieces of advice for any new player coming into the game is that unless they plan to whale, they should completely get past the idea of ever filling out their collection or upgrading everything. I don’t think it’s possible for even the most dedicated player to start a brand new account today and collect everything (for example, we still don’t know if battlepa$$ pets will ever be released to free players in “event pet” rescue events) and that’s entirely by design.

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you 100% understood the point of this thread. To show that doom scrolls are way overvalued in the current state of the game, and that there needs to be another way to obtain them. Of course it will most likely still be insanely expensive for the materials used, but at least it will be a step in the right direction.

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F2P games have certain economies and provide various currencies on a daily basis to encourage engagement. Setting up false calculations to “force” a monetary value for something doesn’t quite make sense, unless those things can actually be traded (in games that allow trading).

If we want to start calculating $ costs for things, how about

Dawnbringer - 1.3M souls (other resources not considered)
Fast source of gems (i.e. not the more economical but slower daily deals) = multiple The Motherlode purchases at 3075 gems/125 Best gem=>souls conversion = Cauldron of Souls at 18,000 souls at 500 gems -value of Dawnbringer if needed right-here, right-now: $1,468

Fire Staff - 3000 souls, 300 ruby, 3 celestial traitstones
(assume daily offers are snapped whenever available to suit the right-here, right-now narrative)
6 x [200 gems] Crafting riches = 10 ruby + 40 ruby (converted from shards)
3 x [200 gems] {Element} trove = 1 celestial traitstone
Total = 1800 gems = 1 The Motherload, with spare gems: right-now value: $125

Is it sane for anyone to spend $1,468 for Dawnbringer or $125 just to get a Fire Staff at the earliest opportunity? I guess not. We should rage about these too :slight_smile: :man_shrugging:
Note: There are more “Fire Staff” weapons at lower cost, then they are Doomed weapons at higher cost. The totals may end up being equal?

The lesson is that assigning urgency and $-value based on urgency to F2P game items that are not tradable isn’t exactly science.

Other calculations:

Enraged Kurandara - 8 Orbs of Power (other resources not considered)
Source - Shrines give 2 Major Orbs at 10. Each give an average value of 0.18 Orb of Ascension, so statistically 67 purchases gives on average 20 Orbs of Ascension + 1.33 Orbs of Power = 8 Orbs of Power -value of Enraged Kurandara: $670

I don’t know where I put my calculations for Mythic from VIP Keys.

On a positive note, calculate the supposed $-value of each troop/weapon/resource you have in your inventory, and then pat yourself on the back for the F2P game making you a virtual million(billion?)-aire!

** VIP levels not taken into consideration. May vary results above by 10-20%.

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except the resources needed for everything you listed can be farmed. The doom scrolls can not be farmed therefore the only way to obtain them is by spending gems which we can put a dollar amount on, because buying gems is the only way you are ever going to attain the amount needed for all of the scrolls.

I’ve been playing right at a year and have easily managed to obtain all the resources needed to craft every weapon including dawnbringer and duskbringer, get every troop including zuul and enraged kurandara, yet I have barely even been able to scratch the surface of obtaining the necessary doomed scrolls to upgrade those weapons.

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Forge scrolls being offered in the next Shrine. Confirmed :laughing:

I disagree that the resources “can be farmed” in the context of most and/or casual users.

If you have played only 12 months and have both Zuul’goth and Enraged Kurandara, I’m going to make some assumptions about your level of play, which is that it is [far] more intense than casual.

If you have crafted all the weapons from all kingdoms every time they [first] appear [for you] in soulforge, then you’re doing better than me on the diamond/jewels front. I’m 11 months in, generate 3-5M gold/2000-4000 trophies per week and still have to pass on the kingdom weapons in soulforge every week, simply due to lack of diamonds. In all 11 months, I have crafted 3 or 4 soulforge Mythics, 5 doomed weapons and possibly a couple of other things.

To advance kingdoms, I have had to spend so many souls on troops such that (after Dawnbringer) I am only nearing 1M again, towards Duskbringer.

With the scene set, to a casual player the soul cost for Dawnbringer might as well be calculated in gems the same way you “have to” spend gems on Forge scrolls. Because for these players, time is not a free resource in the context of this game, so their definition of “farmable” is different from yours. Farming 40K (let say not the most efficient) souls/hour ($7.25 minimum wage) is something they would rather pay a micro-transaction cost of $10 for.

As for crafting jewels, which is one of the recipes I showed, you cannot farm them at will either, hence the gem sink to purchase every daily offer (or flash offer) that comes up - to suit your narrative of un-farmability.

Orbs of Power are not farmable either.

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Before this becomes ad hominem, I think we can all agree that we would like forge scrolls to be obtainable outside of ToD events, right? Whether they be prohibitively expensive or just costly, knowing there’s a goal we can farm towards would be great.

PS: and here I thought I played a lot. Perspective, such a wonderful thing.

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They are both quasi farmable via vault keys tbf. I cashed in 72 VK for heart of rage. I got 5 major blue and 12 more minor blue plus a load of jewels. I can’t get doom forge scrolls any other way than using :gem:.

Those blues allowed me to get 1 orb of power, without using minor blue (at a worse conversion rate) to get my last power orb for Enraged Kurandara. I’m almost in the same spot again now, similar Vk and about the same blue orbs that if I got the same rewards from 72 VK I would be to craft the next power orbs for the next orb Mythic option.

From reading @Jefferson VK posts, he’s farming more VK than most, hence quasi farming a variety of orbs and jewels.

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Just because you play casually does not mean the resources can not be farmed by someone who plays more often.

Jewels can easily be farmed by doing pet battles. If you are having problems with this perhaps you should be in a more active guild. I see on average 8-10 pets a day and during a vault weekend there is a pet up almost 24/7

Diamonds can be obtained by doing dungeons every day, doing guild events, and a couple other means.

Souls… Ive never soul farmed the entire time I have been playing. Soul gnomes easily give enough souls during a vault weekend that you will quickly have a surplus if you are active during the events. I have about 7 million souls… almost 4 million more i could get from disenchanting troops, and that is with having around 200 troops fully medaled.

and power orbs are definitely farmable through the vault event. Once again just because you don’t do it doesn’t mean they aren’t farmable.

You can’t twist things to meet your agenda just because you are a casual player. all of those things are farmable.

Doom scrolls are not farmable. there is no way to get materials to craft them. You must wait 11 weeks for the opportunity to get them and they are available with gems only. You need 55 scrolls to upgrade 1 weapon. So in order to get the new weapon upgraded you must go to level 25 and then buy 3 tier 7’s to max it. Only then can you start to work on any doomed weapons that came out prior to when you started the game. which would take 19 more tier 7’s to max 1.

If someone who grinds well above the average player cannot obtain these items free 2 play, I can only imagine how difficult it would be for you the casual player to obtain them. Yet here you are trying to defend how doom scrolls are obtained.

Feel free to keep playing devils advocate because from most of your posts you seem fairly intelligent, so Im going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you understand the actual point of the original post.

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Gems are far more farmable than jewels, in truth… but that’s really secondary, I fully agree with the original point of this thread, there should be an additional source of forge scrolls besides ToD shop tiers.

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While assigning straight cash valuation of the scrolls is kind of disingenuous, the gem to scroll conversion (and the fact that this is the only way you can get them) does point to a larger issue. I’d disagree with the notion that the metric we should be measuring here is “cost to fully upgrade everything currently in existence after starting now” but rather the average valuation of obtaining (and upgrading) “the ones that matter” (more on this later). Completionist goals have reached such absurd milestones from the perspective of a new player that I wouldn’t recommend them to any new player that doesn’t have nearly limitless free time, a large disposable income, and some amount of self loathing. And thats not just this one thing, but like, everything, and it was done very deliberately with both soft and hard sell monetization tactics (strongly evidenced by the fact that when I first entered “endgame”, I could maintain my level of collection completeness and relative progress from the top by playing about an hour a week and paying zero dollars per week, now if I tried it would be at least ten times that much and at least one dollar per week), so that is not something that is going to change.

To this end, I’d say that the base availability (ie, first time availability for new players) is the even larger issue, and this directly relates to the (current) valuation (both in gems and the psychology of it) of forge scrolls.

If you are after a certain specific color (and more often than not, people are), the wait time is an arbitrary (and average 65) weeks. As in, after this Sunday, the next time someone would even have the opportunity to get red forge scrolls in any capacity without plans being significantly altered (this is also the start of a new weapon type cycle) could be somewhere between early 2022 if they adhere to a strict color rotation (and the next whatever new class of the next weapon cycle happens to be red) and could be as late as 2023 if they run a rotation where they introduce a new Doomed weapon type in a different order next cycle (as they have in the past, and again, this week marks the first one of the given type).

Thats… absolutely insane to me. I don’t necessarily agree with the notion that every player need to be completely “caught up” during this time frame, as in 100% completion (and again, the design of the game is steadily moving away from things like this even being possible so it doesn’t matter whether I agree or not, it won’t happen for this reason). The fact still remains that simple incremental progress becomes more and more impossible by the day. The potential that a new player might, for example, start next week, scrape and farm and whale their way into being able to afford a Doomed Crossbow when it is in soulforge for an extremely short period of a week starting January 4 and not have an opportunity to upgrade it, not even one level, for a year or two. Content locks and rotations that have a significant impact on gameplay are simply too long and too arbitrary. This goes for other stuff too but this is a very good example. I call this a content lock because a Doomed Crossbow gains not only incremental power boosts with every upgrade but significant power boosts at +6, +9 (in many situations) and +10. When a driven player can earn enough power orbs for Zuul or E. Kurandara within a year and a whale that is also a driven player can earn enough for both, and these are considered some of the games most elite collectibles, and you cannot even make a dent in what should be something that represents, while “rare”, a much more basic and much more generally available item, something is wrong. There is a tacit goal to collect and upgrade stuff, especially powerful tools to use in combat, and this is your measure of “progress” in the game. And progress needs to be at least somewhat incremental, or that one goal that took way too long will end up being the thing that burns someone out forever.

I’d be remiss if I didn’t point out that while Tower of Doom was on a four week rotation, the “valuation” to get “caught up” (read here: completely maxed) at any given point was rising even faster than it was due to a deficit in scrolls, even with full tower clears, being introduced with every new doomed weapon without multiple t7 shop purchases. But even with this, two cycles of a given tower color would get you at least one fully upgraded weapon (and a start on another) with minimal purchases (t4 to unlock the weapon and get some scrolls) and the garbage/defensive/“guild wars defense only” class weapons could collect dust as an “eventual” goal - one that might not even “need” (for the purpose of other progress milestones that might matter to a person) to be completed. So while the “valuation” of “obtaining and upgrading every single doomed weapon in the game” is going up less quickly than it did when we were getting 4 week ToD cycles the IMO far more important “valuation” of “obtaining and upgrading tools that significantly impact gameplay within a reasonable amount of time after you have made it a goal” has ballooned to an unreasonable degree because you have one week out of an average 66 week cycle to spend 2850 gems to upgrade your first doomed weapon (WITH a full clear, +4500 with no rooms cleared and +9500 per additional weapon you want to upgrade on this same cycle) and so implicitly outside this cycle would likely be “valued” at a lot more, even if made available in some other quantity, as historically has happened with just about any other “rare” item. And that is really bad.

Theres the slight possibility that this next cycle of doomed weapons is the last one forever, so that whenever red tower rolls around again after all this current cycle is out (again, likely 2022 at the earliest at current pace) it will have a repeat weapon, and that there will be a way to make progress toward being “caught up” without tons of gem expenditure, but this would do nothing to address the absurd waits and costs around upgrading “the ones that matter”, as that calculation always involved simply ignoring the “worst” weapons.

The good news is that (non-committal) assurances have been made that (somehow) forge scrolls will be made more available. The bad is that, at this point, I fully expect this to be something that does not address the issue at all because of this new baseline that is being created now (like putting them on AB/offers in tiny quantities where you won’t even upgrade a single weapon within the 1-2 year cycle that they are currently on at fairly extreme costs) and then flash offers to sell them. I hope I’m wrong about the former and there is put an actual way to earn them (earn, with in-game mechanics that put them into the player’s inventory when they are earned) at a pace that could be considered incremental upgrades to at least a single weapon of every color, but it is basically an eventuality that the second part comes to pass. Because if there’s one thing this post highlights, is that they have successfully created the new scarcity baseline but aren’t properly capitalizing off it yet.

tl;dr: The current “cash value” of the 25 doom weapons is some metric that they will actually assign in the future and the insane baseline being established now is just to make those offers look good by comparison, but I really hope the issue of being able incrementally progress these weapons for new players without cash does still come to fruition.

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