Update is forced on Xbox. So we get the same crappy tasks while others hold off on an update and get better tasks. Makes no sense. Very unfair the way this patch has rolled out not including deeds in adventure board.
I hope i will never see Flash Offer for deeds.
Use Adventure Board as you planned to do and
also put as reward in The Vault matches and on the tiny vault thing of a treasure hunt. With specifical % chance obviously. Just my idea.
This is a nice gesture.
Like many, Iâm just taking a wait/see approach on this. Hopefully it makes delving more accessible to a wider portion of the playerbase. I do think some acknowledgement that youâre aware that the deeds could be implemented poorly/in a P2W fashion might be helpful, though there are some who will continue to assume the worst.
Very true, a lot of players complained about delves and ingots.
The issues with delves/ingots wouldnât occur with deeds (assuming deeds only occur in adventure board or flash offers)
Ingots were added to pvp, after people got tier 1 (riot ensued)
Delves were added, and accessable before reset (riot ensued)
Deeds were added into the game, and are only obtainable via adventure board of flash offers.
Unless a flash offer was going to last till reset: that wouldnât have been an issue
Unless you were going to reset the adventure board on the update before reset, it wouldnât have been an issue.
Saying that, itâs nice to know our thoughts are being taken on board.
Can every future update be during a non-GW week next time?
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The issue is you canât get deed tasks while on the old version of the game and some people still havenât updated, intentionally or not. So until everyone is forced to update, no deed tasks for anyone.
I like it. Though it would have been nice to know this when the update arrived, not sure why it took so long to tell us.
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Listening to feedbackâŚ
There were umpteen (valid) complaints about heroism scroll distribution in ToD.
Devs made changes to the volume and distribution of said scrolls - nuclear Armageddon changes to them to the extent you are lucky if you get 2 of them in 60 floors⌠I remember we averaged 8 or 9 until the change at that point previously. Defeated me, I stopped spending so many gems as a resultâŚ
This started âthe all having same rewardsâ situations imho, which we now find with this system. Itâs played right into the hands of greedâŚ
Having ground out to 10 in Darkstone - an utterly mindless chore, I canât really see why doing 33 more of them for no deeds is in any way appealing. Heaven forbid if I was a new player right now.
So letâs do the right thing and sprinkle some of these rewards in either challenges or something please.
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I think the part most people are missing isâŚyes, the deeds will likely be expensive (akin to the guy who said a orb of ascension was 25$)
The problem is they have players VIP level 20âŚwhich means they have spent over 9,000 dollars on this gameâŚwhich is asinine. Those people will buy themâŚmaking it pay to win.
âBut SalibuâŚmaybe the deeds will be cheap and everyone can afford!â
Thats also pay to win.
I also dont need the âthey need to make money Salibuâ
Im VIP 4 on one accountâŚand VIP 5 on another. Which means ive spent more than a normal video game would cost. So i was willing to throw them money. The fact remains this is a giant pay to win scenario regardless of what lame excuses they throw out.
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The problem of deeds is the placement of deeds in the Adventure Board itself.
The Adventure Board is the new form of the daily task and weekly event condensed into one central location. From its inception, its been giving slightly less value than both tasks and weekly event combined (or for the unlucky people, less than a weekly event by itself).
Now that AB is being diluted with Deeds, its neutering rewards even more and making the player hope Deeds show up anyways in the name of artificial time-gating progress.
Why did we need a nerf on resource gain on a nerfed resource gain as is?
I would really like to see some weekly snotstone event type thing come back as a supplement to the AB diluted with deeds.
For those that think Deeds are worth diluting the reward pool, its not. We still have to pay 570k gold and lose tasks for deeds in the name of getting arbitrary faction hoard bonuses which wonât actually help its intended purpose anyway (do you think 50% Faction Hoard bonus will help the City of Thieves faction?), kingdom team bonuses of which 80%+ (arbitrary number) arenât synergistic enough to put any value to it, and 1 stat point.
1 stat point is nice, but I rather have gems, gem keys, and event keys to keep playing the game.
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Unless they implement a strategy where you gain deeds (3 per day, and a different colour each day, and on Sunday 1 of each colour, similar to dungeons) If you complete all the adventure board tasks.
This doesnât dilute the tasks, while still providing deeds.
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Hey just answering what I can now and will discuss other points with the team later to get you a response.
NOTED re: mentioning the Deeds not dropping on AB until after the forced update on the patch notes.
Weâll keep this in mind in the future!!!
Weâre not currently planning Kingdom levels past 15 so I couldnât tell you about what the resource costs will be sorry!
Regarding the P2W concerns, the Deeds follow the same pattern almost all our other IAPs do:
You can get them for free, but if you donât want to wait and earn them for free, you can speed up the process by buying them when they are available in Flash Offers. I do really understand your concerns about this as a player myself, but this is one of those things I think youâll have to wait and see how it plays out, because I can tell you to âtrust meâ but, whenever anyone says âtrust meâ the first thing any rational human does is go WHY?! ARE YOU UNTRUSTWORTHY?! So just wait and see and then I think it would be worthwhile revisiting this particular topic once you have seen the actual situation for yourself.
The AB Tasks are random, I canât tell you if Deeds will appear 4 days a week or 7 or 0, some weeks maybe you will get 5 days of Deeds and then you might get 0 Deeds for a week. This is definitely something weâre going to keep an eye on.
Regarding Xbox and PS4 getting the forced update sooner - everyone on your platforms got the update sooner, so youâre all in the same boat, console is quite good at making everyone get the update asap. Itâs a bit trickier on mobile as our update comes through different 3rd party providers and we canât make them sync up with each other so we have to wait to force the update for them. If we force update on our side before the update has finished rolling out across the stores and regions then we will block players who canât access the update from playing the game at all, they wonât be able to get past the game title screen, so we have to wait to force update for them. We try to do it as soon as possible but in this case we couldâve done it Friday afternoon before we left for the weekend - but thatâs not a great strategy so we had to wait until this week so weâd be here to handle any issues that popped up.
Iâve noted your feedback and questions down so I can share it all with the team and Iâll continue doing this 
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Okay, Iâll bite, this is really very basic math. Numbers based on the data @Mithran collected with the help of the community.
- Chance for an epic deed task: 10% x 1/6 = 1.66%
- Chance for a legendary deed task: 5% x 1/4 = 1.25%
- Chance for a mythic deed task: 1% x 1/3 = 0.33%
Thatâs roughly a 3% chance each day to receive a deed task from the Adventure Board. Which averages out to roughly one single deed task each month. We need 1020 correctly colored deeds and 102 imperial deeds, so unless each of these deed tasks grants on average 85 colored deeds and 8.5 imperial deeds, âit will take about a yearâ is not going to happen. I suspect that tasks will reward about a tenth, which means it takes roughly 10 years to get all kingdoms to level 15 without buying Flash Offers.
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It may be a bit better than what you posted, if each deed task is a separate entry in the draw tables (as opposed to how traitstones appear to be coded currently).
It may actually be even worse, because they said that gems tasks would stay as likely as they are now, meaning other tasks will have to become less likely.
This is probably what Mithran is typing right now, but there are two further wrinkles. First, those numbers you quoted are the per slot chances, so the daily odds are 27%, 14%, and 3% for a task of each rarity appearing in at least one of the three slots. Second, I donât think Salty said that gems would remain the same; she used the ever-popular phrase âgem valueâ to describe the changes.
Edit: donât stop typing, @Mithran! Your analysis would surely be more complete than what I just scratched out.
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Itâs a bit more complicated than that. Your percentage values arenât independent, if you apply your approach to all rarity tiers theyâll sum up to much more than 100%. You are right though, the overall chance to get a deed task is higher, probably more like 6%, which would reduce the time to collect enough deeds to 5 years. Iâll pick the lazy approach and wait for Mithran to complete typing.
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At this rate weâll be seeing that tier above mythic troops that weâve been told would ânever happenâ. At least I havenât disenchanted a single troop ever.
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Big difference between âcanâtâ and âwonâtâ.
You know the rate, it was carefully selected because the devs have to have a plan for how fast theyâd like a player to progress.
Iâll go ahead and assume âwonâtâ means the same thing it always means: âIâm worried if I tell you how low it is youâll yell at me that itâs too low.â Itâs a freakinâ gacha game. I wouldnât be playing if I didnât think it was low. I just want a guy like @Mithran to tell me how that rate translates to an âaverageâ duration so I can set my damn expectations.
Iâll set expectations back to âno expectationsâ. That negatively affects whether I buy in.
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The interesting thing is, if it takes us five years to get the kingdoms done via the Adventure Board and Sirrians overall estimation of one year is still correct, it means that 80% of our deeds are expected to be obtained through Flash Offers. Doesnât bode well and might explain all the evasive answers we are getting.
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The notable difference here is that every other item offered for purchase has either been around long enough that having it being offered for a purchase does not give the purchaser any kind of specific advantage.
Deeds have the distinction of:
- Being a new currency that bottlenecks progress
- being offered to everyone in the same amount through only one game mode, adventure boards
- when available on AB, once you are able to build a decent team, it takes minimal effort to pick them up, so basically everybody gets the same deeds through in game means (very very minimal effort barrier, its nearly entirely a time-gate).
As far as IAPs go, nothing, and I mean nothing, in the history of the game has risen to this level before. Even offering direct sales of troops and key packs very early into the gameâs life could be outpaced with gameplay, cash advantages could be overcome with effort. Even orbs werenât flash offered until people that didnât make leaderboards started getting ZuulâGoth. Weapons, troops, diamonds to get past troops and weapons, keys to get troops, traitstones⌠lots of things available to accelerate a playerâs progress, but all of them readily available to the frontrunners, usually long before they have even been offered for cash. Some things like Deathknight Armor and Ring of Wonder are paid only, but they only make your farming a bit more efficient. If a cash item offered where it does appear that paying does set a bar unattainable through in-game means, Iâd be happy to rebut. The closest thing right now is the old weapons that were released before 99%+ of the current playerbase even knew the game existed, and even those were technically offered before.
This isnât the case with deeds, and it wonât be for a while. Every deed that enters the game through a flash offer is an additional deed not available to non-payers, for, possibly, a very long time. It doesnât matter if the non-paying player plays 40 hours per week in a top guild and the playing payer plays 1 hour per week in a casual guild and only plucks the lowest of the low hanging fruit rewards, to include a slight detour for deeds if they appear - they will be âaheadâ on this progress system (and have some bonus stats) because they paid. The pattern will persist until everyone finishes deeds, at which the non-paying players will be âallowed to catch upâ⌠unless level 20 kingdoms come. And while there might not be any concrete plans now, this was mentioned as the most likely extension of the system in the dev QA stream, within maybe 12 or 18 months. If you are in the non-paying crowd, you can do nothing to progress in this system except wait or pay.
This is the main reason I bothered to math out projections on how long deeds from AB alone would take. âAhead on progress for a year because I paidâ and âahead on progress for years because I paidâ are both problems, but one of them is more of a problem. Regardless, until the point is reached where enough deeds have entered the game that level 15 kingdoms are possible to have been finished by some set of the playerbase through only in-game means, cash for deeds is not progress acceleration, its offering both game progress and game power for real dollars above and beyond what is attainable by those that do not pay.
While I personally donât think that the stat points gained from said upgrades will be all that impactful to the overall players ability to have an âunfair competitive advantageâ (its there, but its small), they will have an advantage simply not afforded to people that didnât pay, and they will be further along on what is largely considered one of the big goals of the game as a whole. In other words, its just a dash of âpay to win because paying for stats and stats give advantage in competitionâ and a nice dollop of âpay to win because the game as a whole is very progress-goal oriented and you are able to literally pay to be ahead of everyone on this progress-goalâ.
Iâm only bothering to go over this again because I believe the powers that be that spurred the initiative to flash offer deeds might actually be ignorant as to why this as a problem rather than knowing it is and doing it anyway. Of course, if the latter is the case, Iâm wasting my breath.
Iâm going to reiterate what I said earlier - all this needs to not be âPay to Winâ is to simply make sure that simply paying cannot ever get you further than any in-game means. Though that would be kind of a hard sell⌠5 bucks to instantly complete this adventure so you can get the same deeds already available? Obviously, it also begs for in-game means to be available at a more steady pace, including something with a much higher effort-barrier (but still limited entry, so they could still bottleneck), and that effort barrier can then be monetized to be removed or eased. Ethics on this can also be murky, but this is already something that is being done all over the place here, and somebody out there seems to know where to set the limits of how much grind is skipped versus how much cash is paid to be âfairâ, so this is the much better option. Similarly, it would not be âpay to winâ if it were âgems for deedsâ, with the âgemsâ not to exceed normal weekly gain amounts.
Side note on the whole âabout a year thingâ. This was literally unbelievable to me from the start. As in, I cannot believe the system was ever intended to be flown through at this pace, as it seems way way faster than anything designed for Gems of War. There are 34 kingdoms, so âabout a yearâ starting from when the update is forced I guess, would have us pacing out a level 15 kingdom (and a stat point to go with it, for everyone even at the midgame range) in every less than 11 days or so. Thats explosive growth in Gems of War terms. It would have us all gaining an average of kingdom level beyond 10 every two or three days, and because of the top-heavy nature of the system (increasing costs, level 11 is 1/15th the total cost in colored deeds alone) way more than that at the start.
Traitstones do actually appear to be a separate entity for each color in the draw table. We can get 2 different colored same-rarity traitstones on the same day. That has never happened with any other task type. When I gathered the data, I just threw them all together because it didnât affect the outcome much. Traitstones are still traitstones, the stuff we donât want, I had 598 player-days of data to smooth out the bumps of traitstone streaks, and overall they do appeared to be rolled per color, but just at a much lower rate than anything else so that their total appearance rate is roughly ânormalâ (eg., sort of on par with gems in the rarities that both appeared). I would assume that deeds follow the same approach - if we see a deeds task at one rarity, that probably wonât mean it canât be repeated again on the same day (or possibly consecutive days) with a different color.
So its actually quite a bit simpler. For one, we are dealing with estimates based on numbers with some degree of margin of error, and we donât know how much of this is accurate going forward. We have to make assumptions. For another, we are looking for âaverage deeds per dayâ to extrapolate into âaverage deeds per monthâ. To get this, we can apply the simple multiplier to the number of slots offered based on per-slot chance. So while, currently, for example, a 6% legendary task AB appearance rate would yield a <17% âchance of at least 1 legendary board task per dayâ, we donât care about that. Only the long term estimates, based on daily averages. Since the estimate numbers come from recorded data, any impact the âno duplicatesâ rule has on the overall appearance ratio of legendary boards would already be represented, and it is highly unlikely the âno duplicatesâ rule would significantly block deeds from appearing anyways because it is highly likely they work like traitstones in this regard and allow other colors on the same day. We also donât know what happens to enforce the âno duplicatesâ rule, and Iâm fairly certain it is not just the task getting deleted and you getting two tasks that day (that glitch would be much more common if it occured every duplicate, it is more likely a forced reroll happens on duplicate but if the reroll lands a duplicate again, then it is deleted)
Side example, if Iâm looking for average mythics per 1042 gem keys so that I have an idea how many mythics Iâll have after opening 104200 gem keys, citing the 63.2% cumulative probability of getting 1 or more mythics from 1042 gem keys is unimportant, the average is still 1 mythic per 1042.
I went over some quick math on this in an earlier post here, but, I gave the following estimate parameters, giving mostly assumptions that would be more favorable to an estimate for a faster completion of the system:
- I assumed a slightly higher task appearance than anything recorded (6% L, 1% mythic) and that current rarity ratios wouldnât change much if at all (see below, this is the assumption that may have been incorrect)
- I assumed that only imperial deeds would bottleneck (colored deeds still can, and probably will, most definitely on the last few kingdoms)
- given similar rarity ratios, I assumed the rate of deed tasks would be given no special priority (pretty big nerf if they do), that the sum of all of them would be roughly the rate of other tasks in the same rarity, and that the rate of legendary gem task remained the same (since my information was that they were stated to do just this, not âgem valueâ, I was personally told point blank gems should be about the same, again)
I focused on imperial deeds because it was stated how many imperial deeds would be obtainable on which tasks, and not on color deeds that have only been.
Then I went on to check what it would take to get 102 imperial deeds in âabout a yearâ. For 14 months without any flash offers, weâd need both:
- double the (over the highest recorded) current rate of legendary tasks on adventure board, and 100% of this new legendary ratio would be some kind of deed task. Either that, or every single current legendary board (high estimate) task becomes a deeds task. (6% chance of 1 imperial deed per slot per day, 5.4/mo)
- double the (over the highest recorded) current rate of mythic tasks. Either that, or every single current mythic board (high estimate) task becomes a deeds task (1% chance of 2 imperial deed per slot, 1.8/mo).
At 7.2 imperial/mo, it would take about 14 months and change to get 102 imperial deeds. I wasnât very optimistic about this happening in my above post. On second watch of the Dev QA Stream, they did mention that they pulled down the rates of stuff âpeople didnât wantâ on some epic and legendary tasks to put deeds in, and that they were meant to be âreasonably common, particularly the mythic deeds tasksâ. So maybe, just maybe, we will see this massive rarity ratio buff when deeds are actually live. For example, a 0.5% chance of each deed type at mythic rarity is 5.4 imperial/mo, for that rarity alone, for example, but would represent a comparative 3x or more buff in overall mythic board appearance rate (meaning we might actually see them). It all depends on how common âreasonably commonâ is, and how reduced âstuff people donât wantâ is. Remember, on pace for 1 year is a kingdom per average of <11 days, so 2-3 per month. Guess we will see.
The thing is I really canât see this being reconciled unless deeds are intended to be attached to a different game mode in the next couple patch cycles, this is what will make us hit the 1 year estimate, and they are being unnecessarily coy about it. It would still be really weird to me having âone yearâ being a thing as âlong termâ in Gems of War generally means much longer than a year nowadays, and requires a lot of total effort-driven gameplay after the thing is implemented. Take delves, for example. Even after setting up hyper-efficient farming delves, Iâm still 3.5 mins/run to get an average of like 80 chaos shards, so Iâm looking at 5-6 hours of grinding, albeit very spread out over dailies, to mythic 4 troops every month, and that is outside of the initial setup cost to get there in the first place, and I have a feeling the âintendedâ time investment is at least 2 to 3 times that. Progress runs can take significant amount of times, particularly if you are still dead set on full clears. Or, say, enough diamonds to get a mythic through clearing daily dungeons at 40 seconds to a minute each every single day is about 4-6 hours of gameplay per mythic, again, spread out daily. Deeds as laid out now makes level 11-15 kingdom progress bottlenecks a total of less than 30 minutes of gameplay per kingdom, if even that, (couple hours of gold farming per, but you could have already gathered that ahead of time) spread out over what could be less than a couple weeks and on completely arbitrary days. Iâm still having my trouble wrapping my head around how it could possibly be paced out like this without paying some exorbitant and yet to revealed âcostâ. I feel like Iâm missing a chunk of the equation, and I feel like I still will be if it does turn out to be âabout a yearâ. The 570k gold sink per kingdom, paired with the increasing obnoxiousness of gold farming in PvP maybe?
tl;dr: Still have concerns about the âpay to winâ aspect, regardless of what the timetable is, because cash offered deeds are above and beyond what can be earned in game period, but if the âfreeâ timetable is âactually a yearâ, its less bad. But you are still offering both âprogressâ and a potential gameplay advantage not available to players that donât pay (yet)*. Worth repeating, again, âall this needs to not be pay to win is to somehow allow any cash offered deeds to only catch up to whatever the current progress bar is, not surpass it.â (Who knows, with targeted flash offers, maybe this is actually possible, but if this is the plan, you should be saying it is). Bare minimum, I hope enough restraint is shown to not flash offer deeds before they appear in the AB at least enough to fully upgrade a kingdom or two, so that people at least have tangible feel of the pace of the system.
As far as timetable concerns, âone year despite what the old numbers sayâ is still really difficult to believe because thats breakneck pace to 100% a new progression system compared to other stuff in GoW to basically be given out with such little comparative effort. We can revisit this one in a couple weeks, after the floodgates are thrown wide and Iâm figuratively showered with deeds (or not).
One final thought:
A lot of this could be alleviated if they just outright stated the intended appearance rates of deed tasks on the adventure boards. Then I could math based on what is stated rather than projections based on old data. So, if I am still afforded a question, this is it @Kafka: What are the intended rates of deed tasks on the adventure board for each rarity?
One final final thought:
All pay-to-win and the actual length of real time the system is supposed to take to complete aside, this looks incredibly non-interactive for a progress system. Even at a 1 year projection for full level 15s, the waiting vs gameplay ratio is probably worse here than anywhere else. It might seem worse elsewhere for some of us, but thats because we already completed most of the requisite gameplay. This one seems like it is intended to be done before five star completion, so massive gold sinks from that perspective, which would require farming, translating back into effort driven gameplay I guess.
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