This thread moves a discussion about Deeds and their possible Pay-to-Win nature from the Gems of Streaming thread, where they are considered off-topic. This is to make the discussion more accessible and understandable. Here are a few notable responses from players and developers from that thread.
Salty 4.5 Preview Stream Notes
– Kingdom Levels are increasing from 10 to 15 max.
– NEW BONUS: Kingdom Team Bonus (levels 6, 9, 11, 13) Additional bonus for building kingdom based teams.
*** Kingdom Team Bonus STACKS on top of current kingdom team bonuses.
– NEW BONUS: Faction Hoard Bonus (levels 12, 14) → Increases faction hoard bonuses in associated delve by 25% per tier (stackable to 50%).
– Additional stat point for kingdom granted at Kingdom Level 15.
Deeds are the limiting factor in leveling kingdoms past 10 and will be intenationally scarce. Do not expect to level kingdoms past 10 quickly.
Deed Tasks:
– There is a task type for each gem color.
Epic - Colored Deeds only.
The bonuses are based on the stat that kingdom boosts. In the picture, King of the Spire and Kingdom Bonus III are seperate, stackable boosts. Both of which are being augmented by Minifernus. The bonus pictured could be higher, if Kingdom Team Bonus was increased to level IV and Minifernus’s pet rarity was raised (doubt it is mythic).
It took less than 6 hours for Salty to go from:
“We understand you don’t like P2W, that’s why we aren’t ever going to sell deeds. Watch my stream now that you’re happy!”
To:
“They won’t be in the shop at this time, but that doesn’t mean we won’t sell them in the future.”
I’ve seen where this goes almost every day since 2016. They’re going to be for sale frequently. People who buy them more often will be appointed to cabinet positions.
AWR, if you were looking for why people speculate wildly until all information is known: THIS is why. We’re used to our most cynical fantasies becoming a reality.
Also this is why I support information getting out earlier: now people can decide how they like the sound of their kingdom progression being tied to the same logic that determines their Adventure Board. Meanwhile whales will get ahead. Sure, it’ll be slow. It’s going to feel bad when you start facing people with +3 magic if it’s only been possible for an F2P player to have +1.
I think the best time to get ugly about things like this are before they release when the most can be done about it. Post-release your best move is to take at least a small vacation from the game. En masse. Metrics are king and it’d be DEVASTATING to the game’s appearance if top guilds actually participated in a walkout.
But the devs know players won’t do that. They’ve constructed a system that’d make it very difficult to regain the ranks lost. They know players know it, and they know the ranks are valuable to the top players. It’s an abusive relationship.
I just can’t believe that we have gotten to the point where we are comparing a F2P game to an abusive relationship.
I have a lot I want to say about this, but I won’t go into it too much. Abusive relationships are inherently damaging, and equating them to a game that you are free to leave seems in poor form. Many people are afraid to leave abusive relationships, and often for good reason, such as violence, threats of suicide, etc. So… Yeah… Maybe not the best parallel to draw to a F2P game that you enjoy and choose to play, and can one day leave in pursuit of another game, or even no game at all.
On another note, I made a mistake because of a miscommunication in our office. It’s no one’s fault but my own, and things change in the development cycle. @Lyrian was correct, and as soon as I realised my error I was happy to come forward and clarify. It doesn’t happen often, and I do my best wherever I can, but I am also human. Thank you for understanding everyone.
Abuse harms in many ways.
A casino taking advantage of a gambling addict is abusive, even without any threat of bodily harm or outward coercion.
So, too, is a video game if it knowingly and willingly affects the emotional or mental well-being of a player in a negative way. Mechanics designed to get players to play more hours than is healthy, or spend more money than is wise, are abusive in this manner; it’s exactly the same as a cigarette company claiming no responsibility for the potential harm(s) of their product(s) just because their customers “willingly participate.”
You are right, of course, that at this point the key distinction between the types of domestic violence you outline and the abusive, commercial relationships many in your playerbase probably experience (at least to some degree) is criminality, —rarely do cigarette makers or gacha-game-devs go to jail—but that doesn’t make the underlaying power structures at play any more dissimilar or less problematic.
And denying, minimizing, or otherwise dismissing the concerns of others is a classic means of maintaining control, by the way—it’s similar to gaslighting, in that it’s meant to invalidate the abused’s position and replace it with the abuser’s.
I’m not saying that Gems of War has a responsibility to be the Wokest-game-on-Earth or that any Dev should go to jail for creating it.
But I am saying I, as a player, would have appreciated the community liaison to, at the very least, entertain the notion set forth by one of the more vocal members of its community rather than dismiss it out-of-hand in, what seemed to me, to be an uglier-than-necessary fashion.
Batman’s the hero Gotham needs, not the one it deserves. We as players don’t deserve Batman—we’re complainers who never appreciate anything and constantly gripe and snipe—but we need you to be Batman, regardless, Salty.
Otherwise, chaos reigns
Woah, what is even happening? I’m clearly bot trying to diminish anything, which is why I’m happy for people to have this conversation. But I do think pointing out that comparing things to an abusive relationship is a bit of a reach, and potentially very upsetting and damaging.
We listened to our beta testers when they said that they were unhappy with the randomness of deeds, so we made sure that they would be equally available from adventure board tasks. We do act on feedback, and will continue to do so. I’m not dismissing anyone’s feedback, or valid concern, I just don’t think we should be equating a game design decision to an abusive relationship. I don’t believe my reaction was unfair or unreasonable.
If you feel strongly about the power structures (perceived or real) at play in F2P titles, that is something you are welcome to research and comment upon. I won’t stop you, and neither will our developers. We have always let conversations run their course until they have become abusive or inflammatory towards the developers or other players. (Though we often let a lot of the strongly worded and aggressive comments aimed towards us go.)
We are passionate at Gems of War about making sure that a player does not have to purchase to progress in game. Many other titles in the F2P landscape do not share this view. I understand that players wish we could do it in different ways, or that grinding for resources was easier, etc, but we aren’t always able to make those decisions. Morally, we are okay with how we have approached this genre of game, and do our best to uphold these morals when and where we can. We don’t want a stamina system that bars play, and forces players to spend money in order to start or continue playing PVP, or even participating in weekly guild events.
This responsibility to be Batman feels like too much. I’m happy being your liaison, curating your feedback and championing your quality of life requests/suggestions, but I’d ideally like to maintain a mutually respectful relationship with the people I am trying to help and represent. I’m not a martyr that will do whatever they can to help while being mistreated, so please do not treat me as such.
EDIT: And, as always, we are going to be watching everything carefully after 4.5 releases, and changes may be made to the way players can earn and access Deeds.
If you feel that my statement was misleading, I apologise. I was specifically referring to there being a paid barrier of entry. There are ways to spend in our weekly guild events if player’s choose to do so, but it is not necessary to participate and help their guild. We also never want to add a stamina system to PVP, Quest, Explore, Arena or Treasure Hunt. We want players to be able to play Gems of War at their leisure, without needing to purchase an amount of battles, or pay to have a timer removed so they can continue playing the game when they choose too.
I believe I mentioned this earlier, but we have made sure that even when adding Deed tasks to the AB, that the AB will still have the same amount of overall gem value.
However, all that being said, we are seriously off topic. Please keep all consequent conversation in line with the purpose of this thread. If you would like to discuss any of the particulars mentioned earlier further, please start a new thread with your thoughts and opinions.
The latter post prompted the creation of this thread.
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