Dawnbringer unbalances Arena

Yeah, I let my response get out of hand and a little too personal. In both my forum posts and Discord I really need to think a little bit more about what I say.

I think the following are true:

  • If one weapon represents such an advantage that 30% of the team pool is using it, that weapon is overpowered.
  • If one weapon represents an almost 10% effect on your observed win rate, that weapon may be overpowered.

Both of these could be tempered by more data. For example:

  • If we found out that the top 5 weapons have ~30%, ~25%, ~20%, ~10% distribution, then the 30% by itself is not quite as alarming. This is “there are a few weapons that are much more powerful than the rest” and that’s a more complex problem.
  • If we figured out the top 5 weapons all have more or less a 10% impact on win rate, again that suggests “in line with the next-most-powerful weapons” and the situation gets more complex.

But there are a lot of other things at play too, and we’ve been over them. I think “pure” data would mean you don’t ever get to push the “retire” button, and should involve keeping track of win-loss records vs. every weapon. If someone wants to do that kind of record taking they can feel free, but it sounds boring and slow to me and the devs are in a better position to provide that data. I’m a data nerd and I’d love to see a kind of live ranking like that, but it’s a big feature for little gain. (But I’d pay for access to it :stuck_out_tongue:)

Everyone’s experience in the game is different. I’ve tried a handful of suggestions for vs. Dawnbringer and so far Runic Blade’s still my most successful strategy. Summer’s Fury is still quite expensive in terms of mana, and if I don’t get a team that helps me fill red I find the match goes roughly like when I can’t manipulate a good Runic Blade hit.

The presence of Dawnbringer completely changes how I pick troops and has widened the window of what teams I consider unlikely to make it all 8 wins. That alone bothers me. I still stand by the same assessments as before: Runic Blade is hard to beat with lesser teams, but Dawnbringer eliminates so many teams as to make my expected Arena returns in both rewards and “fun” too low.

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Very good points throughout, but I wanted to address this one comment…

I wish I had broken out all opponent weapons, it would have been interesting to see the result. But I didn’t, and not likely to devote the effort in the future. I will say that my impression is that Runic Blade is at least as common as DB in Arena.

Here’s a chart of weapons seen in Arena-- based not on hard data but on my anecdotal “impressions”, so take it for what it’s worth:

DawnBringer 30%
Runic Blade 30%
Crude Club 10%
Mang 10%
Prismatic Orb 10%
All others 10%

Not commenting on the powerlevel of Dawnbringer which clearly is strong af(but also very manaintense and deniable), but I don’t think representation is a good way to look at it.

Right before Dawnbringer existed, Runic Blade was massively overrepresented, i’d say easily 50%(probably even more) of enemy teams had it. That doesn’t mean it was overpowered though, as a matter of fact i personally wouldn’t even have put it in my top3 arena weapons at that time. It just got hyped on these very forums and people are lazy and tend to pick whatever is called out as being strong in forum discussions.
Incidentally that is what will happen if Dawnbringer gets taken out of Arena btw. Instead of 30% Dawnbringer we will be back to 50+% Runic Blade, not that i would mind either way, just saying people will always flock to whatever gets called out as the “best” on here.

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Like its been said, Arena is outdated. Hell, its gone the way of the dinosaurs. The devs need to overhaul that game mode much like they’ve done with everything else. The bandaid solutions aren’t the way to go.

I’m sure that as long as there is money to be made and/or continues to be made, the publisher will give them the green light.

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I agree, Runic Blade was overrepresented but I don’t think it was overpowered. 1 cast on practically any full health enemy would 90% of the time not even kill 1 enemy, whereas Dawnbringer on 1 cast usually kills 3 of my troops (or if it kills 2 brings the other down to 1-2 HP).

I think just from a balance standpoint where we can’t have access to any other mythics where 1 cast could wipe out or nearly wipe out a whole team (not to mention barrier), I don’t think we should have access to Dawnbringer either. Not that its unbeatable or unblockable, but as the topic says, it’s pretty unbalanced

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They fixed it! Now Runic Blade doesn’t boost your player stats.

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Too many Gnomes hours later they have been removed. 600 replys thread on Dawnbringer in Arena 5 months later still nothings been done.

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yea…but gnomes are back…xD they should remove db and let it back into arena again a day later say it was an accident bhaha

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Db is altogether to powerful whether used in arena or defense. It desperately needs a nerf.

I wouldnt worry about it any more…

The new game modes are a total cash cow and there will be no players left soon.

Too many nerfs and not enough action.

:musical_note: :musical_note:

Reminder this thread is 6 months old and the devs don’t give a flip most people feel like an entire game mode is broken by a single piece of endgame player swag.

:musical_note: :musical_note:

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Runic blade

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What about it?

Use it and on normal its not a wipe

This has been discussed to death further up, I’m not doing it again :laughing:

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Lol i saw that post s six months old srry lol

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Last I checked Runic Blade does not confer Barrier to your party, and only works in one specific set of circumstances. Let’s go through the best cases.

The best-case is you manage to kill the DB-bearer. It’s generally in the 1st slot and a fairly strong hero so for this to pan out you need:

  • 2-3 rounds of skull damage -or- an activation of an ability that can knock the DB-bearer to ~14 HP.
  • Collect enough mana to activate Runic Blade.
  • Do the above before Dawnbringer activates.

Timing is very tight. If your board doesn’t start with skulls or isn’t yellow/green friendly, you’re hosed. This case almost always ends in a win, but you can be blocked from it by luck. No amount of skill makes this a high-probability case.

The next-best case involves:

  • One of the defense troops can be killed in one RB activation (smart DB players avoid this). -Or- something is very close to that HP.
  • You have a cheap, targeted damage-dealer that can knock a non-hero troop to Runic Blade range.
  • You get to collect enough mana and spend a turn activating that damage-dealer.
  • You get to collect enough mana to activate Runic Blade.
  • All of this happens before Dawnbringer fills.

If you pull that off, your odds of winning are higher, but there’s a problem. A Dawnbringer activation will be close, and odds are afterwards you have a weakened hero and maybe 1 troop vs. 2-3 barriered opponents that still have Dawnbringer.

All of this is quite difficult. You’ve got a 2-3 turn window to work with, and if the following are true you’re going to take a DB hit no matter what:

  • Sometimes the board is not green/yellow friendly. Dawnbringer collects other mana so it doesn’t care.
  • Sometimes the board isn’t friendly to your damage-dealing troop. You can fill Runic Blade but it has nothing to kill.
  • Sometimes you don’t get an appropriate damage-dealing troop in the entire draft.

That is, overall, bad odds. I don’t like Arena having a weapon so powerful that facing it and winning involves having drafted a specific team AND having luck. No other weapon affects how I draft so significantly.

No one can make the argument, “DB is unbeatable”. The argument is “DB is powerful enough to cut the win rate enough to make the game mode feel uninteresting.”

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Guess your right bud once i realy noticed it i had dawnbringer myself so yeah …

Am I dreaming or has DB slunk out of the arena? I keep expecting to confront him every match but for two days nothing but Runic Blade, a lot more Orpheus Lute, Kingslayer, Baat Jaam Dao, Arrow of Slaying…I can’t be that lucky? and its perversely not the same turning the Runic Blade into a Giant Toadstool-only DB deserved that fate…

Kingslayer, Orpheus’ Lute, and Baat Jaam Dao, you say?

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