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Chaos Hound

Magic isn’t scaled for the arena. It summons a level 1 troop.

Something is off with a lot of player side summons. I keep getting troops with 3-4 arm/5 hps and I’m seeing them on the AI side with far more when they summon.

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Curiously, there seems to be nothing wrong in this particular instance.
Chaos Hound’s base magic is 0 and its magic stat is never increased when leveling - it stays 0 even at level 20.
During normal gameplay, Chaos Hound gains magic from kingdom bonuses/completed guild tasks and other similar stuff that don’t apply in Arena, so I’d say - it’s completely useless and one should never choose it.

Don’t choose it in the arena or don’t choose it when playing the game?

Balance wise, summoners of any kind shouldn’t summon Level 1 troops in the arena… The troop was designed without ever being intended to be in the arena. It needs to be adjusted now that it is. Or at the very least… requested.

Don’t choose it in Arena.
But, yeah, you’re right that current situation is absurd.

Lol. We’ll I don’t. But since it’s sometimes 1/3 only options. I prefer it gets buffed eventually. 9-12 months from now is fine. Back burner of course. Just needs to be done.

I am overly stubborn to the point that I really hate hitting retreat unless I have to. So sitting there for minutes making sure I draft the best team is not an option for me.

Hm… historically I seem to remember summons always being forced to max level (15) in Arena, regardless of what level they would be under normal summoning rules. I haven’t used a summoner in Arena since the revamp, and haven’t played arena regularly in a really long time regardless and when I did there wasn’t much summoning going on, but the times my opponent had them they seemed to have level 15 stats. I didn’t inspect further because this was expected due to what I understood to be the “Arena rule”.

Doing a bit of research, this was on the “known issues” list at one point a long time ago and possibly considered a bug:

But I remember this being a thing years after this point (again, could be wrong here, this wasn’t my focus), and I can’t find the point at which this “bug” was reported to be fixed in any patch notes.

There have been a number of other summon(/transform) bugs over the years in arena, including periods where transformed troops would check the players actual collection (baby dragon getting fully traited level 20 troops) or stuff being summoned in that said it was a certain level but had stats for a different level, which I’ve seen reports on over the years and unsure what the timetable on these bugs being active was (I know the Baby Dragon one was fixed because I personally experienced that one while it was active, after the fix was active, and recently after the arena revamp).

So, if you cast this troop in an arena battle would it be intended level 1 summon but is actually level 15? Intended level 15 but is actually level 1? Intended level whatever but it is actually correct? I have no idea at this point.

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Presently Troops are being summoned in the arena based on the same summon mechanics as the rest of the game. You’re verse enough to know what they are without me Gemsplaining them to you. And yes my reply was just an excuse to use the word Gemsplaining. :grinning:

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I used a Hyena in Arena the other day, and it summoned weaker versions of itself. If they were all lvl 15, I would imagine they’d all have equal stats. Possibly different scenario, I don’t know…

If anyone cares to Gemsplain it to an Orc, I’m all ears. (I just took a bunch off of some Lapinas. They didn’t need them anyway.)

Summoned troops level is minimum of this two parameters: summoner magic or level of your troop in collection.

I arena, all troops levels are maxed to their respective rarity (15 for common, 16 for rare, 17 for very rare, 18 for epic, 19 for legenedary, 20 for mythic), but as none of these troops have anywhere near 15 magic, it’s ususally the magic level that defines the level of summoned troop.

small example:
Hyena with 10 magic, will summon lvl 10 Hyena’s.
Gar’Nok with 20 magic, will summon any Orc troop with it’s max level in your collection (so if it summons a mythic which you dont have, it will be lvl 1).

Usually troops in Arena have their magic somewhere below 10, even if they start at lvls 15-18, so each summoned troop has a lower level.
One most viable example would be firebird, which resurects itself with lower level each time it casts.

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I experienced the same while trying out this new arena event.
Only I chose to have a Fel Dragon Egg and I thought I will just summon a troop when one of my troops die, well I did with 3 armor and 4 health. Didn’t lasted one two rounds.
Summon must be fixed to summon the troop on max level for its’ base rarity.

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Is this how it is supposed to be?

Summons have not worked “correctly” in Arena since forever. Sunbird is a perfect example. The one that is “reborn” on the first cast is less in every category.

But this is working correctly, according to normal summon rules. Sunbird is technically a spell summoner based on magic, and in arena, it has less magic than its current level.

Whether or not arenas should have a special summon rule in arena is a different matter. Since they did at one point, and it was deemed a bug, then removed, I think we know where the dev side stands on that now. Personally I think no, because arena pace is pretty terrible already and while summons are speed bumps in PvP, here they can represent another 3-4 action and turn delay to gather the mana to take out or get a lucky skull. However, many modern GoW summoners have much lower magic than their legacy counterparts, likely being balanced around the existence of bonus stats. Among that, though, they do generally have magic…

Looking into this further, given all the information we have now, the case of Chaos Hound looks more like, for whatever reason, whoever designed this troop “forgot” that summons scale with magic because on the surface (and in-box text) it looks like it “has nothing that scales with magic”. Historically, other troops with zero base magic at level 20 are released as such because they don’t have anything that scales with magic. If we look at GoWDB, which shows what the game files say, we’ll note that Chaos Hound has its base magic score reported as “-1” the same as every pure support gem spawner/converter.

On browsing the database, and digging a bit further, some delve troops that summon are like this, nulled out magic (fell dragon eggs, alderfather, copycat) as well as some other “modern” non-delve troops (mecha rat, Queen Moonclaw) suffer from this as well. The thing they all have in common is that they were all released after a certain date, and the thing that sets the null magic summoners apart from the ones that do have magic is that the null magic summoners don’t have any other component of their spells that scales with magic. Things with a different magic scaling component to their spell suffer no such problems and are given a magic score. Its not immediately clear when this started or if it was consistent through the entire period, but the effects can be observed in which troops have 0 base magic scores throughout their entire level progression (set to -1 in the database), and which don’t https://gowdb.com/troops/?filter=summon (you have to mentally filter which troops summon only with traits or “summon” storms by looking at the spells, but it becomes apparent that all the spell summoners with a zero magic score were released after a certain date and have no other part of their spell that scales with magic). Before that point, even pure summoners that had no other piece of their spell scale with magic (eg., Sir Gwayne). In the long past, pure summoners that had no other component of their spell based on magic generally had higher magic scores at around the same level as their magic scaled-effect counterpart, which made sense because thats all magic did for them, and it was capped in effect.

I don’t think this troop (or any of these troops) needs to be changed in any way specifically “because Arena”, it just seems like an oversight that a bunch of summoners don’t have magic scores, and it looks worse because it makes it look like the person or persons implementing them forgot how the game does summons. Maybe correcting it makes him end up with this specific troop 3 or 4 points of magic in Arena, maybe 12, maybe he’ll still be a garbage draft pick or maybe not, but right now it doesn’t seem correct to have troops with essentially null base magic across all “normal” levels that does have spell that scales with magic. And this applies to all of them with this oversight, not just Chaos Hound.

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Knowledge and competence in one’s job is valuable…
tenor - 2020-10-14T144246.299

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Except that Arena is supposed to be bare minimum for all stats, magic included. Exactly what bonuses does the first sunbird have in arena? I understand that in pvp/explore/whatever, the first sunbird has team bonuses that only apply at the start of the match. That’s not the case with arena. There is no reason a bare bones sunbird with 16 life should re-spawn with 10 life in arena. Unless the summon is inhirently flawed.