A love, hate relationship


#1

I’m not expecting this thread to go anywhere and I’m sure there’s a million like it already here (I’ve not searched, I’m not really interested) but, I might just feel a bit better having vented a little.

I love this game, I have since it’s inception. The thing that really bugs me (and it seems to be getting worse over time, no matter what the devs do) though is this: All (not all but, damn, lots) the defence teams are the same OP bull***t. I try to build a new team, something different, something better? And the AI just goes “Yep, thanks for trying, d***head. Guess what? You’re dead!”

I have to use the same teams they do if I want to win, that hurts. That’s not right. There’s a balance issue here that reeaally needs addressing. I don’t know what the answer is? Maybe limit teams to a maximum one of each rarity? You’d still get OP teams but it might be dumbed down a bit.


#2

I guess one of the reasons for the new defence bonus in guild wars. i.e. use 24 different troops for 12000 point bonus. Since this was introduced I’ve seen a great variety of defence teams. In PVP you still see a certain few teams occuring which is only natural, but at least (as I play on Xbox) I no longer have to play a Kracken/valk/justice/mab team every match.

I personally don’t find the best tactic to beat a team is to use the same team on offence. I have many different attack teams set up that nicely counter different defence teams.


#3

I always thought it was my pure luck when it comes to testing new teams, 9 out of 10 times I lose the first battles with them. Maybe the team was not as good as I first thought it was, maybe there was an awful starting board, maybe there was no mana surges for me and no extra turns, or cascades. Many factors…

However the factor I decide to believe most in is; being up against meta teams always have a limitation of what to counter them with. In most card games.


#4

They basically need to do for PvP what they did for GW. Give people incentives to mix up their teams.

This has been a complaint for a long long time. Even when they introduce the weekly troop bonuses, everyone agreed they needed to do something to encourage people to actually use those troops. The only time it was effective was when it made troops horribly OP (4x Astral Spirit, Spirit Fox, Scale Guard, etc.).


#5

I think at least part of the problem is how the PvP matchups are made. I just asked some questions about it and I get the sense that the game keeps a rolling average of the power rating of the teams you’re using along with some other factors.

There’s two ways to attack that.

“The team rating algorithm is busted.”

Almost every team I’ve built had a power rating within a few hundred points of each other. So Valkyrie, Warlock, Warlock, Warlock “is as strong as” Soothsayer, Herdmaster, Soothsayer, Crimson Bat which is apparently “as strong as” TDS, Krystenax, Sylvanimora, “is as strong as” Troll, Kraken, Kraken, Kraken. That is quite a power gradient but it looks like GoW assess them as between 6,500 and 7,300 power, so they all face each other in PvP.

So at some point, I screwed up because I ascended/traited/leveled my teams enough to get above 6k. Now I face a ton of all-legendary all-traited teams that absolutely wreck me. If I could give myself advice in the past, it would be "once you get a team that wins consistently, stop leveling/traiting/experimenting until you have a full T1 team. Does that sound fun?

“The matchmaking algorithm is busted.”

Because I only face teams “around my power level”, I get stuck if I make a very powerful but inconsistent team. Losing a lot doesn’t really make me back down. There’s actually no real way to go back down as far as I can tell. But this isn’t how many competitive games rank players.

I’m used to being ranked by player performance. If I beat a player with a Lv. 1 team that says nothing about my skill. If I beat a player with a “more powerful” team, that says a lot about my power/skill. I sort of expect a system where the player is ranked, not the team. So players who win a lot get “more points” and face each other more, while players who don’t win so consistently get “fewer points” and face other “weak” players.

This has a neat effect: if I make a powerful, inconsistent team, I’ll gain a lot of ranks from the initial wins, then start losing. Losing to players “at my level” will kick me back down some ranks. I’ll go back and forth a lot and never really make it to the tier where I’m facing T1 teams. If I never make a T1 team, I never face a T1 team. When I do make it, I very quickly ascend to a rank where I’ll face T1 teams.

Personally I think this is the more “right” solution. I think it’s too hard for an algorithm to decide if a random assortment of 4 cards is “powerful” with any degree of accuracy.


#6

Maybe this is too simple a solution BUT…
How would everybody feel about this “solution” to PVP selections:

1 Trophy- opponent is a MAXIMUM of 50% of your level, but can be pulled from anything below that. Essentially 1-50% of player level.

2 Trophy- opponent is from 51-99%

3 Trophy- opponent is from 100+%

This would make each selection very clear cut and even at high levels take lvl 1000 would on average have you facing choices similar to this:

1 T- lvl 450
2T- lvl 1000
3T- lvl 1200

Even though I SOMETIMES get draws like this, I quite often have lvl 1100 across the board, the meta teams, this would prevent that from happening.

Right? :thinking:


#7

I don’t think the issue is so much their strength from the perspective of power score or player level. I see it as primarily about the meta and lack of variety. Forest Troll, 2x Kraken, Mab gets real old real fast.

The solution seems multifaceted to me:

  1. Create incentives for people to mix up their defenses and/or require people to use multiple defenses and/or create systems that prevent players from seeing the same team over & over again.
  2. Fix the issues with mana calculations that came with the Unity port and have resulted in some really painful mana inflation and more susceptibility to RNG.
  3. To the extent #2 doesn’t resolve all of the issues, nerf some of the troops that are most egregiously over-used.

#8

I agree that all of your proposed changes would be extremely helpful to freshening the stale meta and introducing variety, but my suggestion is also about allowing an end gamer, like myself, have at least one guaranteed place where I can try out a deck against a weaker Human team.

Explore is just too easy for deck trials, but often PVP is just too difficult for deck trials. I was trying to strike a balance… :man_shrugging:


#9

If your goal is just to try out new teams then Casual PvP seems like the place to be.


#10

Why you tryin’ to be so astute and logical?

Don’t go all Vulcan on me @Delinquent!!

:vulcan_salute:


#11

That would do nothing for me.

I’m level 1020.
I have no Kraken or Khorvash yet.
I have a single mythic - Stonehammer, whom I have gotten from the growth pack I purchased with real money. I have yet to draw a mythic from a chest.

So what good does my level do for me when a level 350 player gets lucky and pulls three mythics from chests? And yes, I had that happen on me in the first tier of PVP more than once.

I know why I’m not doing PVP outside of what I need to do for rank 1 and GW. I hate PVP. Explore is so much nicer to use the cards I actually wanna use.


#12

And my problem is that this is a game of resource management and PVP is the prime ROI in that regard. I want to either see PVP become enjoyable so people aren’t saying they hate this mode OR I think rewards need to be adjusted upwards in other game modes to better equalize ROI over all modes.

No player should be forced to earn FEWER rewards because of BAD LUCK and lvl 1020 with ONLY Stonehammer DEFINITELY constitutes BAD LUCK in my book! :wink:


#13

I agree that for gold, PVP is the best way to go. But explore is what provides specific traitstones and I also make a LOT more souls through explore (because battles are much faster) than I do in PVP. So I wouldn’t say that PVP is the only part of the game worth it. Gold is ONE resource, but souls and arcanes are the other. There’s also glory, yes, but I find PVP giving so little of that that treasure hunt is really the way to go if tribute doesn’t tide you over there.

But yeah, I am prone to bad luck, it seems. Considering I actually paid money and otherwise I wouldn’t even have Stonehammer (and he wasn’t exactly high on my mythic-wishlist…). Heck, I don’t even have Ysabelle, who is my favourite character in the game, because she just won’t drop. Or Khorvash, whom I also really like as a character (aside from being part of the meta-game). I just cannot have nice things. :stuck_out_tongue: But at least that keeps me playing - I could imagine that it’s harder to keep interest in something when you have everything you want in it. At least that’s how it was for me in many other games. So I’m not even extremely mad about not getting what I want… though at least some mythics, no matter which, could turn up for me, really. :stuck_out_tongue:


#14

I totally feel you!
What gets me is you think they would like to make more money.
Why not listen to fan base and give us what we want. I spent plenty of real money in the game.
I used to love the game and buy stuff for the single purpose of supporting the devs and keeping the game alive. But I’m on a full on hard boycott of real money purchases since the UI change, I will be F2P until the game is acceptable again. It looks like shit now and it’s very unfair, but only in GW. I honestly wish I could quit but I’ve spent too much time and money to walk away.

There is something wrong with the play mechanics in GW.
The same team in dungeon wouldn’t be nearly as difficult to defeat.

You can choose to use the same teams over and over if you want to win, or experiment with new fresh teams and lose. I’m not asking for nerfs, but make more viable counter teams. If those typical teams everyone uses had a clear anti team, people might start branching out more. What’s the point of a new character every week if you never use them. Every power team needs a team they are afraid to go up against. Sure you can beat a fizzbang goblin team or Forest troll kraken team, but is a total crapshoot.


#15

You would give yourself a very bad advice.
Apart that leveling and traiting teams is good for your kingdoms, Meta is not carved in stone. Had you decided to only level a couple teams a few months ago now you would be completely out of the games. I don’t know why you are surrounded by this perennial cloud of dragons, but dragon teams are rather old game and new troops and new meta make them rather useless. I should know, I went months with my all-singing, all-dancing, all-dragon team and I’m paying for it now.
And for what’s worth the meta is moving again. I meet interesting teams in GW and they are trikling down in PVP, mercifully.

You shouldn’t. Your team should face defences a thousand points over it with a good hope to win.

Valkyrie, Warlock, Warlock, Warlock “is as strong as” Soothsayer, Herdmaster, Soothsayer, Crimson Bat which is apparently “as strong as” TDS, Krystenax, Sylvanimora, “is as strong as” Troll, Kraken, Kraken, Kraken.

Who does PVP with Valkyrie, Warlok, Warlock, Warlock? That’s for soul farming. There are better ways to complement Valkyrie than that if you want to send her into a real fight. And apart that there’s no way to absolutely measure the strenght of a team. TDS Krystenax Sylvanimora (and X) can be spectacularly weak against the wrong opponent, and the same Troll Kraken Kraken Kraken.

Soothsayer, Herdmaster, Soothsayer, Crimson Bat

Now this is weird. How does it work?

I met a Fivethousandsomething that had unexplicably got Xathenos. It was rather useless in the kind of team it found itself it. How do you level a Mythic at 350?


#16

I feel for you & respect your attempt to lobby for change with your wallet. However dungeon & GW are apples & oranges. You’re supposed to win more than not by design I’d expect with dungeons. GW is debatably supposed to be the epitamy of competition in the game. Between the sentinels & defending players actively setting teams with the intent to kill you or at least siphon off points GW battles shouldn’t feel anything like a dungeon battle.

I disagree. I have 5 different teams I regularly use in pvp depending on my mood and opponent, 6 different GW teams that get altered slightly depending on opponents, 2 different farming teams and an event-specific team that changes based on the weekly event. Seems a fair amount of variety to me. GW is not the place to ‘test’ a new team first. Do that in pvp, casual or max level explore first.

Again I disagree, even before any of the nerfs to these troops. I’m NOT going to say it isn’t annoying or frustrating to see the AI run over you with no chance to stop it or recover, because it is. It happens and it happens more frequently with some of the grief defenses like troll/kraken, wisp & fizzban, but with decent teams & strategic choices you should still be able to win more frequently than you lose.

I consider myself a decent player, not an extraordinary one, but against grief teams I’d still bet I’m 80%+ win rate. If I think I’m in a mood where I’ll throw my tablet across the room if I lose to a grief team I just skip them temporarily or play a different area like arena, treasure hunt or explore for a bit.


#17

I have a feeling the difference is “you’ve been playing for months, I’ve been playing for maybe 2”. You don’t know/can’t know what my meta is like, because your teams are more powerful and you face a different meta. My guess is I’m stuck in a blob of people who don’t read forums/don’t have guilds/etc. but managed to build a dragons team and are just grinding away with it forever. I don’t know. I’m tired of dragons, though, so I was not excited to see a new hero class just for dragons.

My point was the power rating on that team is the same as the others. It’s to highlight how you can build a team with a rating in a certain range that’s wildly different from other teams in that range.

Inconsistent, probably better with Soothsayer fully trained. It starts slow. Soothsayers give a little boost to bat, and if you’re lucky you snag some red/blue from them or can trigger an mo4. Herdmaster explodes the board, if it doesn’t fill bat it usually fills Soothsayers and gets a free turn. Bat does a lot of true damage.

What happens with most teams is they slowly pick off my troops while I’m nailing them with the bat. If they get me down to just bat, usually they only have 2 troops left and between skull damage or the ability I make it.

It’s no good vs. teams that can hit the back troop first, and I’ve had some trouble with strong regenerators/summon teams. I just switch to other teams for that. The TDS team is a race since it does tons of AoE damage. Pure luck.

What I like about it in terms of most of my other teams is when it wins, it wins faster than my other teams. Overall I feel like I get to play more matches with it. Whatever, it came from an old Tacet video and it worked for a while.

The most efficient currency for fast leveling is dollars.


#18

Lots of months. Lots of wrong turns and ignorance too.

I don’t know where you stand, to be honest. If nothing else you got into a guild a lot earlier than me. And I faced my metas too, but it was a different game.

These days I see a lot of Dragon teams around in PVP, a lot less in GW; I don’t know what kind of Dragon teams you are facing. What goes with TDS and Krystenax? What is in first, second, third, fourth place?
What can you use against such teams?

Well, I did build my dragons team when I didn’t have a guild and didn’t read the forums.
TDS saved me from leaving because I was getting enormously frustrated.
My first Dragon team was Wyvern, TDS, Dragonette, Venbarak because Krystenax was just a twinkle in Sirrian’s eye then. And I played the hell out of it.
…But not on defense. It was terrible on defense and I honestly don’t understand why my Dragon defense is now consistently around 50% wins.

Point taken. My point, on the other side, is that you shouldn’t measure the teams by their points. It’s not an indication of power, not even of adequacy. I can put together 4 Dwarven Gates and go over 9000, this doesn’t make it a good team. You can put together 4 Mythics and still have a bad team.


#19

[quote] I don’t know what kind of Dragon teams you are facing. What goes with TDS and Krystenax? What is in first, second, third, fourth place?
What can you use against such teams?[/quote]
“any two dragons” works. I see a lot of Sylvanimora, Celestasia, Venoxia, Bone Dragon, Borealis, Emperina, Venberak, and Dimetraxia. The weaker ones try out Dragonian Monk or some of the other “easier” dragons to get, those don’t seem to do so well and I think part of it is the CPU isn’t smart with Monk.

Thing is once any of these teams Bejeweled + Fallen Stars, it’s almost a guarantee one of the other dragons is full. If I’ve managed to kill a troop, they get a good one back. Once I fall behind, I stay behind.

I don’t know what to say to “What can you use against such teams?” I’m new, and I got scared from making new teams because the implication is “If I level/trait more troops I face even harder PvP”. I’m not sure how true that is, but no one seems to really know how PvP is sorted so I’m still a little frozen.

RE: the power ratings: as best as I can tell that’s what the game is using to decide how “strong” I am in PvP. So if somehow I managed to win some games with the soul farming team, I’d eventually start facing TDS teams because “obviously I can handle them”. As far as I can tell, losing doesn’t bump you down very far unless you intentionally make a gimped team and lose with it. But it’ll only be temporary.

So I feel like “TDS is the only solution to a TDS team” and I’m just playing a waiting game. If you’ve got a vs. TDS team suggestion, I’d love to hear it. I’m sitting on 30k souls and don’t mind farming traitstones.

This is what I’ve got:
http://gowdb.com/collection/735298d28fc81211eaa16ddc8786a3d1


#20

As someone who is level 1020 and still “only” has a dragon team with TDS and loves grinding away with it for forever, I find this discussion interesting. I only got Krystenax from this week’s events. My team is Asha, Dragotaur, TDS and Leviathan (it was Dimetraxia before Merlantis hit) and I do fine. I get to PVP rank 1 facing tier 2 and tier 3 in around two hours, I’d say and have right now a pretty consistent 4/1 streak in GW going (not enough leveled/traited troops for colored day matches yet).

Explore is heaven. I love explore with TDS; not just because of all the souls coming in, but because it’s so ridiculously simple and enjoyable to simply not even have to think. It’s just Asha casting to fill TDS up, then TDS casting, repeat twice, win (on Warlord II). And that over and over. I do that on complete automode and zone out for hours. So while I don’t know anything but my dragon team, basically (and TDS was also what stopped me from leaving; I have no Kraken or Khorvash…), I absolutely love it still and find the game awesome with it.

Leviathan in spot four definitely made Kraken meta teams much more beatable (so would Dracos 1337, but I prefer Leviathan’s skill by far).