Your opinion is not considered a dissent when a majority of the player base feels the way you do, or at the very least, doesn’t strongly disagree. If anything the “boot lickers” are the dissenting voices. I don’t consider myself a boot licker or whatever you would like to call the neutral players here. I say neutral because I have good and bad opinions of the game, I just try to tend to be more openly positive here to counter the overwhelmingly negative opinions. I certainly don’t blame anyone (good or bad) for feeling the way they do about the game. I just took issue with your strawman argument in your first post and that sent me down a rabbit hole.
In the end I hope all resources become plentiful and goal posts move into reasonable range. I don’t see this ever happening, but If an update comes where deeds become farmable in some form, I won’t be upset that’s for sure lol.
So you don’t even agree or like the current direction of the game, you do this simply because you want to oppose people…? Because…?
I consider anyone who is opposed, or at least unsatisfied with the status quo and direction of the game from the past years as dissenting individuals. In a sense the developers are the power as they determine the direction of the game.
Of course it’s my fault…
The moment someone posts *“I hate teh color blue.” they are “literally” saying they hate everyone who likes said color and that’s enough to warrant anything including mockery because of a typo like teh.
Since it’s completely fine when players attack and troll other players AS LONG AS it favors the developers I can only say: Thank you for your contribution and enlightening conversation. I’m sure we will get involved in more of the same again when you decide it’s time to try insult me for no good reason at all.
Honestly, I am just concerned about how much NAGGING on the forums it will take to get there. It is absolutely insane to set the imperial deed and book requirements so high. And still no confirmation from the devs that it taking decades to achieve, at the current rates, is intentional. I absolutely loathe the lack of communication about their plans.
The lack of customer-centric logic (or ‘existing-yet-hidden logic’, for those of us who have not yet observed the documented design patterns by this Company) has been once again confirmed by a Mod ref. Seemingly Mismatching Medals given World Event Restrictions:
At least their philosophy remains consistent, so we can et our expectation accordingly.
I’m inclined to agree with this conclusion. Hindsight is of course 20/20, but it does very much appear that the design regarding kingdom levels and above are accurate as implemented and are not placeholders.
That said, I’ve asked myself if the majority of the frustration on the forums is one of perception.
Consider two fictitious scenarios,
Players can see future upgrades to level 20 for kingdoms, but reaching level 20 in any kingdom is not possible for five years.
Players can only see up to level 15 for kingdoms. Once a year, at the game’s anniversary, the kingdom level cap increased by 1. After five years, kingdoms will be able to reach level 20.
Both scenarios reach the same endpoint at roughly similar timeframes. Which way is more acceptable for players?
Nailed it with this statement alone. The big issue right now is players see that it technically is possible to get to level 16, especially if you bought the campaign pass and have book of deeds already for a few colors. The problem is just because it’s possible for a select few does not mean the cap automatically has to be raised to allow the rest to achieve what the top can. Alternatively, you don’t want the players at the top to continue pushing forward at will because that creates a power gap. Believe it or not, that’s one of the reasons this keeps this game F2P and not P2W.
I use the example of imperial deed offers because it proves this point well. Certain members here on the forums are claiming this is a bug. Since they have everything in the game and maxed out all things, imperial deeds must be offered because that would increase their kingdom levels and that’s all their account needs now. My counter to that is why would the game offer you an imperial deed if you have no kingdom power levels that require that kingdom level yet? It’s like the game offering you an epic troop to increase your power level when you are mythic or pet locked instead. I don’t know if this actually happens though so that may be a bad example, but you get the point. Just because you need something, doesn’t mean you should get it. This goes for imperial deed offers and regular deed offers. They are most likely RNG offers with a rare chance of showing up. People have just assumed the offers will always give you something to progress your account. I agree this is true, but only to a certain extent. I would love to see this cleared up in a future stream or dev Q&A though.
As far as what information has been made public, Salty has stated on streams that the chances of deeds of any type appearing in a daily deal is purely RNG, although rates have never been publicly disclosed. Personally, I believe that imperial deeds offers have around a 1% rate of appearing, give or take.
Thinking about the perception issue, I had a jog down memory lane and remembered a similar situation from the past.
Newer players would not remember this, and most veteran players may have forgotten as well though the sands of time.
Everyone is accustomed to the Daily Dungeons and how they work.
However, in their initial implementation in 3.1, Daily Dungeons did not give not guaranteed diamonds. Instead, there was a percentage chance of receiving diamonds after each boss clearing.
The rates were for Monday - Saturday runs were:
Mini-bosses 1 and 2: 25% chances for 20 gems
Mega-boss: 50% chance for 20 gems
Such a successful roll for diamonds resulted in a screenshot like this,
So each day, a player could have walked away with as many as 60 diamonds, or possibly not at all.
Fun Fact #1: This is why the Sunday Daily Dungeon is called the Dungeon of Luck. With much higher diamond payouts on that day, smiling RNG could have resulted in huge diamonds payouts for players… or none at all.
After much feedback, the devs decided to remove the RNG element from the Daily Dungeons and normalized payouts at their long-term expected payout rates (ex: 25% * 20 diamonds = 5 diamonds, 50% * 20 diamonds = 10 diamonds).
Fun Fact #2: This was the last time RNG rolls were removed from player rewards in GoW.
So, in terms of imperial deeds, which is better? A 1% chance of an imperial deed appearing in each eligible daily deal offer (rewards have variability in their appearance rates), or a guaranteed imperial deed offer every 100 eligible offers but a literal zero chance of appearing in the other 99 offers (rewards are fixed in their appearance rates)? In the long run, both routes reach similar results. But, is one method better optically than the other?
My counter to that is why would the game offer you an imperial deed if you have no kingdom power levels that require that kingdom level yet? It’s like the game offering you an epic troop to increase your power level when you are mythic or pet locked instead.
Why am I getting offered things I do not need?
#1 - The system is so well designed it’s offering me things I’ll be needing in 2025 (the positive crowd’s favourite) #2 - The system is designed to adjust itself in accordance with my progress (the neutral crowd’s favourite) #3 - The system is not taking enough factors with regards to a player’s progress into account (the slightly negative crowd’s favourite) #4 - The system is deliberately designed to spite people who have most or hardly any things (the negative crowd’s favourite)
My take: I think it’s safe to assume #2 was their intent when they started programming the daily offer system.
#1 and #3 are symptoms of the same problem - the system is under-designed and under-programmed to catch enough of the ‘edge’ (top, bottom x.x%) cases in a way that feels satisfying to all.
What % of offers should be useful to a starting player, a midgame player, an endgame player? I have no idea, but I’m relatively certain I give less than 2% of offers any thought. And that sucks. ‘Special offers that are tailored to your account’.
I don’t need 15 ingots, I have 25k. I don’t need 50 shards, I have 22k. Can I interest you in 10 rubies perhaps? Not really. New offer at the end of your arena run perhaps? Now you’re adding insult to injury. ‘Special offers that are tailored to your account’.
Take the player’s gems and make them feel good while doing it. But the system does neither for me. It makes me grumpy and doesn’t make me spend gems because of how infrequently the offers are useful to me. ‘Special offers that are tailored to your account’.
Please come up with something - LITERALLY anything - other than more of a resource I have an overabundance of. I’d happily spend gems and feel good about it if there was more than ‘throw some gems into the virtual incinerator’ on offer. Put emoji sets on offer, cosmetics - I don’t care, ANYTHING. I might still not buy them, but I’d feel like you actually gave some thought to what you’re offering me. ‘Special offers that are tailored to your account’.
NB: I don’t remember getting ‘Imperials’ on offer, but I might be wrong.
Just like how missing on Diamonds on Dungeon rng was awful, not actually seeing Imperial Deeds while seeing others get it is really awful. The people that are slogging through Kingdom leveling/losing the 2nd slot are at a disadvantage compared to the ones that are not as well.
I see Imperial Deed offers enough, but I have some guild mates that see it way less than me.
It doesn’t help that Deeds have more or less dried up compared to their original release rate.
I really like how you broke things down there. I agree, I think number 2 in your scenario is the likely intent of this system. But I still disagree on the distribution and maybe this also falls into the perception category discussed earlier.
The player has made the assumptions at the direction of the devs that offers are built towards their account to help them grow by targeting things they need to gain levels in kingdoms. The devs essentially said this is how the offers would work, but doesn’t really tell the whole story of all the offers. This isn’t always the case(jewels/shards/ingots offers), but 95% of the things a player would want to buy, it’s the ‘Special’ offers they probably end up taking(such as a pet offer). Of course deeds and imperial deeds are something everyone would want, but not everyone can afford.
Now you have to start to look at what the actual offers are. I’m not an expert of the offer system or all that is offered but it looks to be two types. The specific account types ‘Special’ offers and the general offers such as jewels/shards/ingot/deeds/imperials. I believe each of these categories is rng based.
Full Disclosure I almost never buy offers cause I use gems for bigger sinks like weekend faction and cosmetic pets. Everything else including pet offers/deeds/imperials I’m not in a rush to get, it will come with time.
Special Offers- I’m pet locked on a few kingdoms so that offers come up but sometimes I get offered something I don’t need like a bunch of common troops. This got offered to me today for wild plains to help get it to PL 22, which of course isn’t possible yet. All I had left for wild plains is to level 5 troops to bronze elite level and upgrade traits on 31 troops(not possible yet). I finished the elite bronze task so I’m curious if I will be offered the troops in the future. But this rotates and ranges from useful to downright useless such as ingots or common troops. My theory is this is rng and there are a set amount of offers the system could give you and I’m sure the percentage of specific offers is higher for some than others. It could be completely equal chance of getting a pet offer or troop one, but I’d have to collect data to tell.
General offers- These are often crafting or treasure offers for me. Occasionally I’ll see a deed one but not often. This makes me believe general offers are 100% rng based and the rarity for deeds and imperials is very rare. This rng is not dependent on your account progression and a beginner may see that offer as much as an endgamer would. This is a complete theory though, and maybe endgamers do see these offers more. Like I said, not an expert, so if someone has concrete data, I’d love to see it.
Both of these systems have set values with set ranges. For example, just because you have 200 genie lamps, doesn’t mean you will be offered 20 genie lamps. The system doesn’t care what your current inventory value is. For pets and troops I’m guessing it only knows how many you need left, not how many you currently have. If you have more than 4 left you might get offered the 3 pet offer more than a 1 pet offer and anything less than that you might get offered the 1 pet one. More speculation on offers there of course.
My point here is that just because have an amazing excess of inventory items, as most endgamers complaining about this offer system do, doesn’t mean you will or should be offered the very rare items more regularly. I could use that imperial just as much as you. Why should you as an extreme end gamer get more access to that? Not to mention most of the players complaining about this have thousands upon thousands of hoarded gems to cover the costs of dozens of valuable offers. So when they say “I’d gladly spend my gems for that or this, so offer me that or this” doesn’t really mean they are spending actual money or that they don’t have more than enough to afford it. As I said, this would create a massive power gap and the extreme endgamers and big spenders would skyrocket past F2P players or players not focused so much on offers(like myself).
Except even an extreme end gamer would run out of gems before they could get much of a power gap. 30 imperials would be 15k gems for each kingdom, that doesn’t factor in the cost of the books of deeds needed as well. Since they don’t sell books of deeds lets say you get deeds at the best deal of 225 for 2 deeds. that would take 25 purchases for 1 book of deeds which is 5625 gems. now you need 30 of those. so thats 168,750 gems. So… In order to just get 1 extra stat from offers would cost you 183,750 gems. I don’t see anyone creating a power gap by players getting those offers more often.
Fair points, but level 15 is where the stat point is. Let’s say in an extreme scenario they allow players to only get deed or imperial offers once they have everything maxed. Those players will easily be able to get level 15 on all kingdoms since that is all they are waiting for. For argument sake, let’s assume the average player has between 0-5 kingdoms to level 15. I can get about 18 if I spent all my resources on leveling kingdoms, which means the current maxed players are already nearing the 34 limit as it is. This means the point gap would be 29-34 or higher between the top and the average. They would also be able to save all those imperials for the level 16-20 grind. My theory as stated previously is that deeds will likely become more easily obtainable once power levels are obtainable that need kingdom level 16. Which is why book of deeds aren’t even seen outside of campaigns, because their technically not even needed yet in terms of power level progression.
So now you have a situation where the spenders and the longtime gem hoarders/spenders have imperials and just need the deeds to craft books. Of course if deeds and imperials become so easily gathered in the offers what reasoning would the devs have to make deeds or imperials available in other modes? They wouldn’t, because they would see how much everyone is spending on the offers. You’d basically be incentivizing them to keep that up and solidify that as the only way to obtain them. I remember the days when factions first came out and everyone complained about pure faction difficulty. Then all of a sudden everyone started gem sinking on weekend events to pure faction it. And the players wonder why the devs didn’t change anything to assist the players there lol. Instead they locked the assistance behind kingdom levels(50% more hoard bonus past level 15). Something players who have already achieved all kingdoms to 2500 will most likely get to first and not even need.
As someone who doesn’t find PvP T3 difficult and doesn’t care a lot about GW, I will admit, the power gap argument falls short for many players. But I know a lot of players whose main frustrations are those two modes. Those extra stat boosts from the players who can quickly max out to level 15 is only going to make that more frustrating.
From a purely trophy grinding/event completion point of view, this would be a great change for them cause of all the extra stats. Makes explore grinding that much easier lol!
To meet you and the end gamers halfway I would say a change to increase the percentage chance of seeing imperial/regular deeds in general offers would be welcomed by everyone. I would just argue against that being mostly what is offered if you reach that extreme end game point. I’d rather push the devs into giving us multiple ways to obtain rare items that don’t involve thousands of gems. Not like the maxed out players are hurting for anything as it is.
this one example is simple:
Kingdom helper offers weren’t well thought and/or implemented for PL 20+.
“Medalling troops offer” is one example, where instead of extra common troops it should offer you… medals and souls, because that’s what’s needed to aquire to have that task done. (completely ignoring if you have 100 medals or none, as offer system doesn’t check “ammount” of resources player has -> i.e. pet offers having 3 copies, when player needs only 1 or 2 to upgrade that pet to mythic)
These offers also depend from player level and maybe inventory. My alt is being offered a lot of traitstones offers in 1st/3rd slot. While I haven’t got offered such thing even once (and already got 1 imperial deed offer on contrary).
So there are few factors involved. One annoying thing is probably not checking player inventory when offering kingdom helper offers:
offering more copies of pet, than player is missing to mythic the pet
offering ingots, when player already has more than 100 of those
offering common troops, when player has to medal them
offering Event keys, when obtaining more troops isn’t currently possible
these above are all “kingdom helper” offers which base on player inventory, but ignore what player exacly has…
Offers in 1st/3rd slot are generic offers taken from a pool, which differs depending from player level.
They ignore player inventory at all times:
The player has made the assumptions at the direction of the devs that offers are built towards their account
Daily Deals are special offers that are tailored to your account
Kingdom Offers will help you complete your Kingdom Power Level Tasks.
Player Level Offers will contain different items based on your account level.
Taken from the official help page on Daily Deals. Yes, this could literally mean anything. But you know what? Most people aren’t that cynical. They assume this will actually do what it says.
[Just because you have an abudance] doesn’t mean you will or should be offered the very rare items more regularly
[My offer] ranges from useful to downright useless such as ingots or common troops.
I’m okay with progress relevant items being rarely on offer. Put a 10% gem discount on the HUNDREDS of emojis, portraits, titles and put them in the offer rotation for accounts that have no need for troops, shards, ingots, jewels. Because those are actually relevant on some level to my account and I’d never buy them otherwise. Cheap and simple way to get me to spend some gems.
[Spending gems] doesn’t really mean they are spending actual money or that they don’t have more than enough to afford it.
I’d rather push the devs into giving us multiple ways to obtain rare items that don’t involve thousands of gems.
I agree, but I’d wager the devs see it differently. Much/most of 2020’s development time was dedicated to reducing existing resource stashes. Getting people to spend actual money requires taking away their excess resources in the first place. The top 0.05% will and always have bought their way out with real money. The top 1% will and always have tried to outgrind whatever the devs throw at them. Everyone else might just have to get used to balancing RMT and grindable resources going forward.
My theory as stated previously is that deeds will likely become more easily obtainable once power levels are obtainable that need kingdom level 16.
I too think this is going to happen. Not to any degree that makes the experience any more enjoyable, though. The medal system is a good indicator of how fast they want progress to be going forward. I saw a silver elite Gray King last week.
[I seem to remember Sirrian saying ‘about a year’ for all kingdoms at L15, but I could be wrong]
[Resources available to endgamers] this would create a massive power gap
The real power gap will be new players vs seasoned players. 2020 hasn’t been kind to new players. Almost all resources had extra sinks introduced or higher requirements attached to them in 2020 without changing resource income by any meaningful amount - power orbs being the one big exception. Progress has been slowed down for new players just as brutally as it has been for vets.
I don’t know what the AB looked like while I was gone for 20+ days, but I think they’ve had more deeds this week than the past quarter. Maybe they were accidentally removed like the pet gnomes from Arena, and now have triumphantly returned.
I won’t say you are wrong because I haven’t been painstakingly tracking where my writs have come from. But I can say this. I’ve never used gems to buy writs. My guild is active but casual so we get some writs from tasks, but not every week, and not a lot.
I have crafted at least 1 imperial deed (I really think it was more than one, but for sure one) so far and have 1300 writs banked. That’s 13 deeds or 1 imperial and 3 standard deeds.
As I said though, I haven’t tracked my writs to a source. Perhaps the writ fairy haha. But I have to believe 100 writs from dailies is possible this far in.
If you meant just imperial deed… that could be true.