Waverider - a question to devs


#1

Which person came upon the idea of an unit, that can’t be killed…?
could be the same which invented wisps… they will be fun
Why should i retreat a pvp fight, losing points, due to your moronic ideas…?

this is nonsense… i can fight the next two weeks and i wont be able to win…
i cant do anything to harm him… if he’s submerged, Elemaugrim cannot dmg him…
plus, i have to take first the barrier out…
before i can gather mana for Elemaugrim, he always manages - what a coincidence! - to load his skill full… even if i try to take all the blue and yellow gems from him, there always drop some “lucky” gems for him…

few turns further… :rage:

and so on and on, and on…


#2

If I am not mistaken a skull match from your side will destroy his Submerge. Then spell him to death with your troops.


#3

No, it doesn’t…
With skull-match i can only take the barrier out…
Submerge can be only cancelled by enemy’s action: attack or spell…


#4

Then we have to think twice of what team to pick against any teams with any Submerge troops in them.


#5

btw, the spell shouldn’t affect the unit itself, only other units…

obraz

but in this game nothing works as intended, or has sth. with logic in common…


#6

I read that as he can give it to himself as well, cuz hes an ally. Would be strange if his somewhat poor spell couldn’t have been used on himself, his 2nd trait is nice tho. Just check your team twice before you entering a battle that has an Submerge troop in it, and all good.


#7

sadly, i can’t agree… An ally is an other person (group of…) than myself…

an ally (merriam-webster)
one that is associated with another as a helper
a person or group that provides assistance and support

if it would be “Give a random unit in your team…”, but it isn’t…


#8

I believe ally is shorthand for friendly troop in this game, takes up less space. Think of it as your allies. He can target himself because he, too, is an ally of you, the player character. Also, if someone can be their own worst enemy, surely they should be able to be their own best ally as well :wink:

As for your frustration, you found a counter to your deck! No big deal. That just means you should use another deck against teams containing the waverider. Add a card with dispel maybe (Wisp, e.g.), and don’t rely on team-wide damage effects only to deal with the opposing team.


#9

Bad luck… and yes agree you could have anticipated this and brought a different team…

I do think Submerge could be improved a little:

  • it should protect from aoe effects from traits (kraken or plague, for example)
  • it should protect from aoe status effects (death’s deathmark effect, maybe famine’s mana drain)
  • it should get neutralised if you are hit by an attack

PS: please mind your language.


#10

Yes, please mind your language, OP. Edited to remove profanity.


#11

See, and I thought Waverider needed to be UPGRADED to say:

    "Submerged: Prevent all damage and status effects that target Waverider + 1 or more troops."

AND:

    "Waverider's SPELL targets any Ally other than Waverider"

NowayJoe2Go


#12

@ Svaldan + Jainus
And i think, it’s a flaw, nobody thought of…
But - instead of fixing it - u can always say oh, u could have picked another team
U see, i liked the old Bone Dragon or, say, Fizzbang looping like crazy… but due to players’ cries they got nerfed… Why…?
No one cares to nerf wisps (and noo, the last up did not much harm to them) or the most over-powered unit like Stonehammer, or the endless-looping combo of Forest Troll, 2x Kraken and Mab…

@ all
P.S. sry for the language, but after a very long time of trying to take the Waverider out, frustration took over…


#13

Wait, Wave Rider is now strong?
I thought it was bad?


#14

It isn’t.
That would go for “another ally”.
Ally - is defined as a friendly unit. Which it is. Working as intended.

And yes, you are right - you can’t really fight it with AoE only teams. But you can fight it with Wisps. It dispels. And deals damage.
… Wisp kind of is the answer to everything. As long as it stays that way - they won’t touch the troop.

I kind of like the idea. It forces you to change the meta into single-target troops like Famine, War, Pharos-Ra, Skull-oriented teams… I don’t find the troop overpowered. Annoying? Probably. But not overpowered.
The troop is vulnerable to poison, drain, dispel, silence… If you know you are about ti fight one - there are more than a few teams to counter this troop.


#15

It is bad, it just has Silvermaiden syndrome where a last hit situation versus itself (or in this case, itself and another troop that can’t deal spell damage to it) results in an infinite stalemate (and therefore probably a retreat and loss for the player). I don’t think there is anything inherently wrong with this, thats one of the reasons why there is a retreat option (although it would be nice if a retreat just forced an instant loss so you could keep any resources accumulated, since it counts as a loss anyways).

Overall, I’m finding submerge currently a minor annoyance mechanic as I said when it was first introduced. I was a bit worried when the description appeared in the game files that it might null damage from things like Infernus or Ketras, but as it is now, applying to only full AoE damage spells it only applies to a handful of troops that anybody uses, and the AoEs themselves are often the least threatening parts of the troops. Also, very few things that have submerge are threatening enough that they can actually push through to a win versus the better teams that use AoE, unless they don’t have any spell damage other than AoE and they have very little or no board mod (which, again, the best AoE troops do). Taking a defensive stance on invade is often a losing strategy that eats up four times as much time even when it wins because every time you drop the turn you are giving them another roll of the dice to trigger an RNG event that will make you flat out lose. It would be nice if submerge were a bit more universally usable as a beneficial status, but also a bit easier to remove, as per @Jainus’s suggestions.

Basically, the intent behind submerge was more than likely to force you to make different teams to deal with it as a threat, or be able to use it versus teams with heavy AoEs. The reality is that it might just take a bit longer to reach the victory or defeat screen. Even in the scenario in the original post without submerge, they would have had a hard time damaging the enemy Waverider with the two troops remaining - submerge didn’t really affect the outcome at all.

I’d love to hear a case for this, but I’m going to have to say no.


#16

Fun subject
(It is a sarcastic complain, right?)


#17

He can be killed just fine, so that claim is a non-issue.

Well…it was your idea to bring an AoE damage dealer against a troop that you knew would be constantly Submerging, sooooo…


#18

That was obviously sarcasm.

This.
It’s similar to picking Draakulis against Devour teams. OP literally asked for it.


#19

If so, it doesn’t translate well with that context, given it is sandwiched between two complaints given completely straight. Especially when you consider the main post complaining about a defensive troop that is overall pretty universally regarded as bad but can infinitely outlast troops that can’t deal a significant amount of spell damage to it.


#20

I can still be relatively wrong, you see. I have different frame of reference than @Black_Seraph , but then again - this topic is about something different.

Either way, I believe the troop mentioned is more useful than Stonehammer - to compare. Which doesn’t necessarily mean it’s overpowered, but could point towards the Stonehammer balance from the other direction.

As far as I know, only troops that are influenced by Submerge are:
Krystenax, The Dragon Soul (partly), Elemaugrim, Draakulis, Crimson Bat (not really used much), Euryali, Yasmine’s Chosen… And that’s it (I think I missed a nice couple of ones, but these are the most commonly used).

There are more than enough troops and teams that have absolutely no problem fighting the troop. I personally don’t even remember myself struggling against it, not even once.
The troop itself resembles The Silvermaiden. And that one is not countered by Poison and refills itself partly with each cast. Also has Holy Armor. And nobody has used her ever since the Weekly Stat Bonus.