Trait/Talent Activation sequence - Titan v Archer

[Makkon]

I was wondering about the sequence of activation regarding a fully traited Archer class skull striking a Titan class with the Impact talent.
Which of the following would occur assuming the Bullseye trait is triggered:

1. Archer kills Titan with Bullseye but is then stunned by Impact
2. Archer killls Titan with Bullseye and is not stunned in so much as Impact talent is not triggered due to death of Titan
3. Archer is stunned by Impact first thus preventing Bullseye from activating and Titan is not killed.
   Obviously this could apply to any class with Impact talent and could also relate to Assassin’s third trait as well as Archer’s Bullseye.
   Thank you in advance for any insight on this!

[Grundulum]

I believe it’s option #3. When a Rock Troll (with the Knockout trait) matches skulls against a Titan hero, the hero is unscathed but the Rock Troll is stunned.

[noob]

kinda hard to tell because when psion skull hits titan, it steals mana before getting stunned

[Grundulum]

Pfffffffffffffff. This would be a great thing to have work consistently across the various troops that do things on taking/receiving skull damage. (This also ties into the recent threads about Webspinner and Crimson Arrow.)

What does Rock Troll do for skull damage against itself? Does stun take effect before Stoneskin reduces damage? Or do you need to match skulls a second time to take advantage of the stun?

[noob]

just did a quick test. stun triggers first so the troll takes full damage on 1st skull hit
also ran 20+ runs archer vs titan and bullseye didnt trigger once so #3 seems to be the answer. but still need further testing

[Makkon]

Maybe we can get some insight from the developers on this @Cyrup @Kafka. It is a bit convoluted trying to be certain whether a Talent/Trait trumps another. If Psion drains mana before being stunned but Archer is stunned first, it makes it difficult to formulate potential strategies. If I recall correctly, I believe that troops that Death Mark on skull hits like Herad of Chaos and Wraith are also stunned first and Death Mark is not applied. In fact, it would appear that the Impact talent may trump everything except for Psion. It would be pretty crazy were this the case as Impact is only a Level 1 Talent. Any info from the developers would be appreciated. @noob Thank you for experimenting on this

[BelethS]

If i’m not wrong, skull damage occurs first, followed by status effects, and last devour/lethal dmg/instakill/kill.

So the titan’s impact should kick in before lethal damage is applied, as stun is a status effect.

That’s how it works with Lust for example, that links a status effect to a kill effect.
When she’s killed, her status effect trait (charm an enemy) hits in before the kill effect is applied.

Also, skull damage always counts in before status effects and/or kill effects. That’s why a entangled rock troll will not stun the opponent on a match 3 skull (that is fully negated by entangle), but WILL stun on a match 4/5 skull or a doomskull match (that slips through entangle).

[Jonathan]

Found this while wandering the forums:

'Stun on being hit' not working consistently with troops doing something on hit

Troop slayer seems to go before stun is applied, my hero was just one-shotted by an archer hero before he got stunned, same as psion’s mana steal… Right now I assume the double/triple damage traits like the one on webspinner will work in the same way, I’ll pay attention whenever I cross upon one!

and, as usual, @Mithran’s lovely explanation:

@Mithran

There are multiple ways things that happen “on skull hit” are processed. Without going into too much detail on this (again), Psion’s mana drain happens before (and independent of) damage calc (because it drains mana even on lethal skull damage; entangle/0 attack blocking it is a special case), while status application traits only process after damage is actually dealt (because they won’t apply if no damage is dealt, so they obviously have to know how much damage is dealt). They could be clearer about where these lines are, but it is unlikely for them to “fix” this issue by reordering the way things are resolved and risk breaking a dozen other things.

[Avathar]

@BelethS

If i’m not wrong, skull damage occurs first, followed by status effects, and last devour/lethal dmg/instakill/kill.

I don’t think this is always the case, webspinner applies web before skull damage (and you’ll receive the 3xdamage even while using titan, then she’ll be stunned, happened to me this week), but unless I’m remembering wrongly forest troll won’t entangle… The various traits seem to be treated differently, somehow

[Makkon]

It does seem rather convoluted. As stated in the above linked post, it may be too difficult to make it uniform at this point. Perhaps a prioritization flow chart from the developers would help. I really don’t mind if different traits or talents are prioritized differently. I just want to be aware of that what they are compared to one another so we can better plan attack/defense strategies.

[Jonathan]

@Avathar

webspinner applies web before skull damage (and you’ll receive the 3xdamage even while using titan, then she’ll be stunned, happened to me this week

Hm, this seems like a strange and interesting case - and I can confirm that behaviour from using Webspinner myself.

[Makkon]

I think I saw a posting that Crimson Arrow is similar to Webspinner related to this but I have not tested it myself.
OK, I just tested it. Crimson Arrow does inflict Hunter’s Mark and does the double skull damage before being stunned by Titan’s Impact.

[Dust_Angel]

Just now an Archer matched skulls against my Sentinel (with Impact perk selected) - Sentinel is dead (bullseyed), Archer is stunned.

[Makkon]

Perhaps this is because Titan has the Fortitude talent running thus making it immune to Rock Troll’s stun? I wonder if Rock Troll skulled Titan without Fortitude if Titan would end up stunned and Impact would not trigger, leaving Rock Troll unscathed. With some of the examples posted in this thread, I am starting to think that the sequence for most activations may actually be - Attacking troops status effect, then skull damage from attacking troop (including potential lethal damage like Bullseye), then Defense troops status effect (like stun from Impact talent or Freeze from Bone Dragon’s Frozen Soul trait). It also seems that the Defense troop’s status effect triggers against the attacking troop regardless of whether Defense troop is killed or not.

[Makkon]

This seems to reinforce what I believe is the activation sequence that I posted above.

[Koromac]

I would definitely ask @Cyrup or @Kafka if they can comment on the initial issue.
I am not sure if this thread should be moved to the Bug Report section instead.

Thank you.