Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, elit eget consectetuer adipiscing aenean dolor

Talent Tree Woes

If there’s one thing I really despise about the Talent Trees it’s that so many talents refer to specific troop types. How many classes have the Forest talent tree? Six of them. And how many of those are of the Elf troop type? Two of them. Let’s take a look at the Level 70 Talent Row for those six classes.

Archer - Elf
Forest 70 Elven Sentries All Elves gain 1 Magic and Attack at the start of a battle.
Wind 70 Child of Sky 25% chance to summon a Heronath when an ally casts a spell.
Cunning 70 Dodge 30% chance to dodge Skull damage.

Barbarian - Orc
War 70 Bloodthirsty Become enraged on 4 or 5 Gem matches.
Forest 70 Elven Sentries All Elves gain 1 Magic and Attack at the start of a battle.
Storms 70 Lightning Strike Explode 1 Yellow Gem on 4 or 5 Gem matches.

Orbweaver - Elf
Forest 70 Elven Sentries All Elves gain 1 Magic and Attack at the start of a battle.
Shadow 70 Dark Venom Poison a random Enemy when matching purple Gems.
Morale 70 Inspiration All Allies start battle with 15% Mana.

Shaman - Tauros
Forest 70 Elven Sentries All Elves gain 1 Magic and Attack at the start of a battle.
War 70 Bloodthirsty Become enraged on 4 or 5 Gem matches.
Light 70 Lightbringer Gain bonus Yellow Mana from Yellow Gem matches.

Sunspear - Raksha
Forest 70 Elven Sentries All Elves gain 1 Magic and Attack at the start of a battle.
Water 70 Water Mastery Gain bonus Blue Mana from Blue Gem matches.
Fire 70 Firebringer Gain bonus Red Mana from Red Gem matches.

Warden - Beast
Forest 70 Elven Sentries All Elves gain 1 Magic and Attack at the start of a battle.
Guardian 70 Banishment Dispel all enemies on 4 or 5 Gem matches.
Cunning 70 Dodge 30% chance to dodge Skull damage.

Now let’s go through which talents make sense for each class. For Archer, the level 70 talent gives 1 Magic and 1 Attack to possibly the entire team. You could also take the Dodge, probably a better option, if you’re going to be frontlining to take advantage of Bullseye (15% chance for Skull damage to be lethal). The Heronath summon is a Stryx/Mystic that creates a leafstorm and gives all allies Armor, boosted by Ally Stryx, which you probably only have one of at that point.

For Barbarian, it doesn’t make any sense to ever take Elven Sentries. I can’t imagine a team where you would choose the Orc Hero and take an Elf talent. The other two talents are pretty good alternatives.

Orbweaver it makes the most sense to take Elven Sentries (although Orbweaver should really be the Beast class and Warden should be Wargare). The other two talents are pretty trash. There’s no reason to poison anyone as Orbweaver, you’d want that maybe if you were playing Assassin (but even then I would take Dodge instead). The Morale is almost never taken because of King Avelorn (all elves start at 50% mana).

For Shaman, the best talent is undeniably Bloodthirsty, because the other two are worthless. You’re not going to be running Elves with Tauros, and there are a whopping 3 Tauros in the game that use Yellow mana, including Mongo who no one in their right mind would use. So that rules out Lightbringer.

For Sunspear, it’s definitely a toss-up between Firebringer and Firebringer, because no one is going to be taking the other two. Sunspear is used for basically one reason: Phoenicia, who relies on Sunspear’s Heatwave (Firestorm at every turn), and Phoenicia uses Red, but not Blue, mana. That doesn’t mean Water Mastery is bad, it just means Firebringer is good (and we’ll pretend Elven Sentries doesn’t exist).

And then there is Warden. Of all the classes that aren’t Elves who might have Elves on their team, this is probably the highest contender, because there are Elf/Beast troops. But Banishment is simply too good to take 1 Magic/Attack over. Banishment is basically a level 100 talent accessible at level 70. It’s extremely powerful. Entire enemy team has Barrier and is Submerged? Not anymore.

This is all a testament to the fact that most talents do not reflect the Hero troop type or teams they are a part of whatsoever – and this is just one talent. There are 119 talents across 17 Talent Trees. How many of those do you suppose refer to a specific troop type? 22 of them do:

# Matching Classes # Classes Talent Tree Level Talent Name Description
1 6 Arcane 100 Mystic Channel All Mystics gain 2 Magic and Life when an enemy dies.
1 6 Cunning 100 Thieves’ Guild All Rogues gain 1 Magic on 4 or 5 of a kind.
2 6 Death 100 Unholy Blessing All Undead gain 2 Armor and Magic when an ally dies.
1 7 Guardian 100 Armor Plating All Mech Allies gain 2 Armor per turn.
2 6 Life 100 Eternal Summer All Fey Allies gain 2 Life every turn.
1 6 Light 100 Divinity All Divine Allies gain 2 Life every turn.
1 7 Morale 100 Urska Major All Urska Allies gain 1 Attack every turn.
1 6 War 100 Bull General All Tauros Allies gain 1 Attack every turn.
1 5 Water 100 Aquatic Glory All Merfolk allies gain 2 Magic when an enemy dies.
1 7 Wind 100 Stryx Commander All Stryx allies gain 1 Attack every turn.
3 6 Forest 70 Elven Sentries All Elves gain 1 Magic and Attack at the start of a battle.
1 6 Cunning 40 Goblin Friend All Goblins gain 2 Attack.
2 7 Storms 40 Titanic Surge All Giant Allies gain 1 Life and Magic.
2 5 Stone 20 Dwarven Armor Gain 4 Armor for each Dwarven ally.
1 7 Wind 20 Celestial Currents All Centaur allies gain 1 Magic.
1 7 Morale 10 Royal Armoy All ally Knights gain 2 Armor.
1 5 Shadow 5 Shadow Scales All Naga Allies gain 1 Armor every turn.
3 5 Chaos 1 Daemonic Rage All Daemons gain 1 Attack.
1 6 Fire 1 Feline Fury All Raksha gain 1 Attack and Life.

What is going on with these talents? Look at the level 100 talents where 6-7 classes have these talent trees, but only 1-2 of those classes have the corresponding troop type. Sentinel is the only Urska troop type, but who would ever take Urska Major over Fortitude? And any other class with Urska Major (Bard, Dragonguard, Knight, Orbweaver, Warlord, and Warpriest) would never take it. But then you run into utter chaos with situations like Warpriest’s Level 100 talent choices:

Talent Tree Level Talent Name Description
Light 100 Divinity All Divine Allies gain 2 Life every turn.
Morale 100 Urska Major All Urska Allies gain 1 Attack every turn.
War 100 Bull General All Tauros Allies gain 1 Attack every turn.

Lol… what?!

This is just sloppy design. Level 100 should be exciting no matter what class you’re playing. There should never be a situation where players feel like their choice at 100 is meaningless (and for some classes, it really is, as seen above). Here’s the really bizarre thing though… Divine Ishbaala is FROM Leonis Empire and is a Divine/Human. She has the trait Radiant Aura which starts all divines at 40% mana (because most Divines are Mythics with huge mana pools). Oddly enough, there are only two other Divines from Leonis Empire: Voice of Orpheus and The Devoted, both of which are also Humans.

The one class though that actually would want to take Divinity at 100 would be Priest, which is of the Divine troop type. There are 17 Divine troops from Whitehelm. That makes sense that if you were running a Whitehelm team with Divines, you’d give them and yourself 2 Life every turn (the other talents for Priest at 100 are god awful).

Of course, the head scratcher is that Holy St. Astra is a Divine/Human from Whitehelm, but she starts Humans at 50% mana. So if you’re playing as Warpriest and want to start at 50% mana, you need Holy St. Astra from Whitehelm. If you’re playing as a Priest and want 40% starting mana, you need Divine Ishbaala from Leonis Empire. Both are Divine/Humans, but your Hero is only either a Divine or a Human and only benefits from the Level 100 talent if you’re a Priest.

Makes total sense. Great design. /s

5 Likes

I agree with everything you said, and you said a lot, but hasn’t this been discussed to death already? Everyone agrees the talent trees are imbalanced and there are a bunch of terrible options at the highest levels for some classes. Yes, the whole thing desperately needs a rework but unfortunately that seems extremely unlikely to happen any time soon… just like weapon affixes.

Yeah, I’ve got this covered in around as much depth … the devs do not care. I’m … resigned.

4 Likes

These are my suggestions:

Talent Tree Level Talent Name Description Suggestion
Arcane 100 Mystic Channel All Mystics gain 2 Magic and Life when an enemy dies. Gain 5 Mana when I take damage from Spells.
Arcane 70 Arcane Surge Gain bonus Purple Mana from Purple Gem matches.
Arcane 40 Antiquity Gain 4 Magic when using Artifacts.
Arcane 20 Mana Source Start battles with 50% Mana.
Arcane 10 Anti-Magic Sphere Reduce damage from Spells by 20%.
Arcane 5 Mage Lord Gain 2 Magic if in last position.
Arcane 1 Magical Shield All Purple allies gain 2 Armor.
Chaos 100 Chaos Wave All enemies lose 1 point on a random skill when I match Skulls. Chaosblade: Deal triple Skull damage to diseased enemies.
Chaos 70 Delirium Gain 2 Magic and Attack when I take damage to Life.
Chaos 40 Sudden Doom Create a Doomstorm at the start of battle.
Chaos 20 Spawn of Hell 50% chance to summon a Hellspawn when an enemy dies.
Chaos 10 Plaguebearer Disease a random enemy on 4 or 5 Gem matches.
Chaos 5 Dark Hunger Steal 1 Life from the first enemy when matching Purple Gems.
Chaos 1 Daemonic Rage All Daemons gain 1 Attack. All Purple allies gain 1 Attack.
Cunning 100 Thieves’ Guild All Rogues gain 1 Magic on 4 or 5 of a kind. Poisonblade: Deal triple Skull damage to poisoned enemies.
Cunning 70 Dodge 30% chance to dodge Skull damage.
Cunning 40 Goblin Friend All Goblins gain 2 Attack. Greedy Touch: All Allies gain 1 Attack when I gain Gold.
Cunning 20 Backup 35% chance to summon a Bandit when an ally dies.
Cunning 10 Light Fingers Gain 5 Gold every turn.
Cunning 5 Knife Throwing Gain 2 Magic if using a Dagger.
Cunning 1 Hunt Hunter’s Mark a random enemy on 4 or 5 of a kind.
Death 100 Unholy Blessing All Undead gain 2 Armor and Magic when an ally dies. Deathblade: Deal triple Skull damage to death marked enemies.
Death 70 Swift Curse Death Mark a random enemy at the start of battle.
Death 40 Life Siphon Steal 2 Life from the first enemy on 4 or 5 Gem matches.
Death 20 Icy Veil Create an icestorm at the start of a battle.
Death 10 Soul Caller Gain 1 Soul every turn. 20% chance to summon a Warlock when an ally dies.
Death 5 Chill of Death When an enemy dies, Freeze another random enemy.
Death 1 Reaper Gain 2 Magic if using a Scythe.
Fire 100 Fireblade Deal triple Skull damage to burning enemies.
Fire 70 Firebringer Gain bonus Red Mana from Red Gem matches.
Fire 40 Gift of Fire All Red Allies gain 1 Magic.
Fire 20 Firestarter Create a firestorm at the start of a battle.
Fire 10 Up in Flames Burn a random enemy when an ally dies. Create a firestorm when an ally dies.
Fire 5 Fireproof Immunity to Burning and Faerie Fire.
Fire 1 Feline Fury All Raksha gain 1 Attack and Life. Fury of Fire: Burn a randomy enemy at the start of a battle.
Forest 100 Harvest Moon All Wargare Allies gain 2 Life every turn. Rootblade: Deal triple Skull damage to entangled enemies.
Forest 70 Elven Sentries All Elves gain 1 Magic and Attack at the start of a battle. 50% chance to summon an Arachnaean Watcher when an enemy dies.
Forest 40 Wall of Vines All Green allies gain 5 Armor.
Forest 20 Nature’s Aura Create a leafstorm at the start of a battle.
Forest 10 Root Trap Entangle the first enemy at the start of battle.
Forest 5 Perfect Aim Gain 2 Magic if using a Bow.
Forest 1 Haunted Weave Web a random enemy when I summon a troop.
Guardian 100 Armor Plating All Mech Allies gain 2 Armor per turn. Reflect 40% of Skull damage.
Guardian 70 Banishment Dispel all enemies on 4 or 5 Gem matches.
Guardian 40 Savior When an ally dies, Barrier another random ally.
Guardian 20 Razor Armor Add 20% of Armor to Skull Damage.
Guardian 10 Vanguard Gain Barrier at the start of battle.
Guardian 5 Protector Gain 3 Magic if using a Shield.
Guardian 1 Stone Wall All Brown allies gain 2 Armor.
Knowledge 100 Master Builder All constructs gain 10 Life. 20% chance to summon a random Construct when an Ally casts a spell.
Knowledge 70 Tree of Knowledge Gain Enchant when matching Green Gems.
Knowledge 40 Mentor All allies gain 1 Magic.
Knowledge 20 Tactician Gain 3 Magic at the start of a battle.
Knowledge 10 Golem Protector 20% chance to summon an Ancient Golem when I take damage to Life.
Knowledge 5 Well-Read Gain 3 Magic if using a Tome.
Knowledge 1 Serendipity Give a random ally a random status effect.
Life 100 Eternal Summer All Fey Allies gain 2 Life every turn. Faerieblade: Deal triple Skull damage to faerie fired enemies.
Life 70 Nature’s Will Gain bonus Green Mana from Green Gem matches.
Life 40 Healing Herb Gain 4 Life when matching Green Gems.
Life 20 Fey Vengeance Faerie Fire a random enemy when an Ally dies.
Life 10 Fast Healing Recover 2 Life every turn.
Life 5 Purification Cleanse myself on 4 or 5 Gem matches.
Life 1 Resilience Gain 8 Life.
Light 100 Divinity All Divine Allies gain 2 Life every turn. Divineblade: Deal triple Skull damage to cursed enemies.
Light 70 Lightbringer Gain bonus Yellow Mana from Yellow Gem matches.
Light 40 Armor of Light All troops gain 4 Armor. All allies recover 4 armor on 4 or 5 Gem matches.
Light 20 Dawn’s Aura Create a lightstorm at the start of a battle.
Light 10 Brilliant Aura All allies gain 2 life on 4 or 5 Gem matches.
Light 5 Leading Light Gain 10 Armor if in first position.
Light 1 Shining Staff Gain 2 Magic if using a Staff.
Morale 100 Urska Major All Urska Allies gain 1 Attack every turn. Morale Boost: Cleanse all Allies when an Ally dies.
Morale 70 Inspiration All Allies start battle with 15% Mana.
Morale 40 Commander Gain 2 to all Skills if in first position.
Morale 20 Quick Study Gain 10% bonus XP from battle.
Morale 10 Royal Armoy All ally Knights gain 2 Armor. Swordsmanship: Gain 2 Magic if using a Sword.
Morale 5 Resplendence Gain 2 Magic if using Jewellery.
Morale 1 Exemplar Gain 5 Attack in PvP.
Shadow 100 Rising Shadows 7% chance to assassinate the last enemy when another enemy dies.
Shadow 70 Dark Venom Poison a random Enemy when matching purple Gems.
Shadow 40 Stealthy Cannot be targeted by spells (unless there are no other targets).
Shadow 20 Dusk’s Aura Create a darkstorm at the start of a battle.
Shadow 10 Shadows’ Call 20% chance to summon a Sister of Shadows when an enemy dies.
Shadow 5 Shadow Scales All Naga Allies gain 1 Armor every turn. Immunity to Poison and Disease.
Shadow 1 Gloom All Purple allies gain 2 Life.
Stone 100 Fortitude Immune to Stun, Poison, Disease, Death Mark and Devour.
Stone 70 Stone Mastery Gain bonus Brown Mana from Brown Gem matches.
Stone 40 Rock Solid Gain a Barrier when matching Brown Gems.
Stone 20 Dwarven Armor Gain 4 Armor for each Dwarven ally. Recover 4 Armor every turn.
Stone 10 Stone Circle All Brown Allies gain 3 Armor.
Stone 5 Hammer Mastery Gain 2 Magic if using a Hammer.
Stone 1 Impact Inflict Stun when enemies deal Skull damage to me.
Storms 100 Lord of Storms Elementals gain 1 Magic when an ally casts a spell. All allies gain 1 Magic when a storm is summoned.
Storms 70 Lightning Strike Explode 1 Yellow Gem on 4 or 5 Gem matches.
Storms 40 Titanic Surge All Giant Allies gain 1 Life and Magic. Explode a random Gem at the start of battle.
Storms 20 Storm Aura Create a duststorm at the start of a battle.
Storms 10 Thunder Fist All Yellow Allies gain 1 Magic.
Storms 5 Mace of Power Gain 2 Magic if using a Mace.
Storms 1 Chaos Storm Summon a random storm on 4 or 5 Gem matches.
War 100 Bull General All Tauros Allies gain 1 Attack every turn. Warblade: Deal triple Skull damage to stunned enemies.
War 70 Bloodthirsty Become enraged on 4 or 5 Gem matches.
War 40 Vengeance Gain 3 Attack when an enemy dies.
War 20 Blood and Glory Gain 1 Glory in PvP Battles.
War 10 Axes of Doom Gain 3 Magic is using an Axe.
War 5 Counterattack Gain 2 attack when I take damage.
War 1 Ferocity Gain 4 Attack.
Water 100 Aquatic Glory All Merfolk allies gain 2 Magic when an enemy dies. Frostblade: Deal triple Skull damage to frozen enemies.
Water 70 Water Mastery Gain bonus Blue Mana from Blue Gem matches.
Water 40 Deluge Submerge a random ally on 4 or 5 Gem matches.
Water 20 Watery Binding All Blue Allies gain 4 Life.
Water 10 Ocean’s Trident Gain 3 Magic if using a Polearm.
Water 5 Insulated Immunity to Frozen.
Water 1 Snap Freeze Freeze a random enemy at the start of battle.
Wind 100 Stryx Commander All Stryx allies gain 1 Attack every turn. Windblade: Deal triple Skull damage to silenced enemies.
Wind 70 Child of Sky 25% chance to summon a Heronath when an ally casts a spell.
Wind 40 Gale Force All Yellow allies gain 2 Attack.
Wind 20 Celestial Currents All Centaur allies gain 1 Magic. 20% chance to summon an Astral Spirit when an ally dies.
Wind 10 Wind Speed All Yellow Allies start battle with 10% Mana.
Wind 5 Precision Gain 2 Magic if using a Missile.
Wind 1 Wind Shield Gain 8 Armor.

I agree most talent changes would be an upgrade, but no more skull spam strengthening talent please. I would like to see a positive status effect which gives you increased magic damage just like enrage gives you 1.5x dmg and ignore enemy traits.
Also I do not like to loose troops. Your suggestion for the morale tree is just as bad as the current one, and only can be activated 3 times during a battle. A lvl 100 talent should be an all time active passive talent or something which can be activated many times, 4 or 5 matches, when doing skull dmg, every turn etc.