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Sirrian's Design Thoughts (Last 4.7 Epic Task Update)

First and formost I would like to say despite my posts, I really do appreciate the effort the dev team has put into the new ‘epic’ tasks and for listening to our feedback. We don’t just complain about everything, we complain because we love the game and have a huge heart and passion for it and want to see it succeed and want to continue playing it. :sparkling_heart:

Can we make it so you only have to finish any 6 guild tasks, normal/epic?

That would give the players the freedom of choice as an option rather than force this requirement to get LT’s. If the players themselves choose to do 6 epic tasks instead of 6 basic tasks, that’s already going to be 2x the gold we do now at 31.5mil instead of 15.6mil and will cut the LT’s down by -15 alone.

This allows guilds more freedom to decide which resources have the most value and what their specific guild is most interested in since not all guilds need the same things depending if they are low/mid/high tier with beginners or end-gamers.

One reason why I felt that ‘epic’ tasks was a misnomer was their rewards are not ‘epic’ in value, and they are required as a precursor to get to LT’s. LT’s on the other hand hold greater value because a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, simply stating that a legendary or a mythic in my hand would normally cost me 50-800 keys, and we are not getting a bump in keys nor the gold to complete these tasks.

I’m really curious to see the data on how many guilds out there actually finish the first 15.6mil to complete all tasks, and how many could complete the 31.5mil additoinal to reach LT’s. What is the average guild producing in gold each week, and how many guilds will epic tasks actually help?

If the end goal is to cut down on the LT’s, why don’t you just limit it to 10/week like glory & event keys?
Then you can make this optional which 6 tasks we want to do or if we want to do them all.^^ You could do that by making 6 tasks + 6 guild tasks + 1 LT tasks but the 13th is greyed out and cannot be donated to until at least 6 of the other tasks reach level 12 completion.

EDIT: Make the 13th task, ‘legendary tasks’ max out at 12/12 like other tasks.
This concept can be used for future 14th mythic tasks as well.

So 13 tasks in total, and 6 required to unlock the 13th for LT’s.

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All I’d like to know is the expected rollout date
As it does have a large effect on how guilds operate

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This issue was clearly not considered when they designed epic tasks or when they revamped the system. It’s funny that making them optional would have been a win - win for all tiers of guilds. Yet, they keep telling us that option is impossible without saying why they refuse to use that option.

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Yes I agree, this should be optional for those people who do want it and for those who do not.

If the end goal is to cut LT’s, then they should additionally limit that to 10 like glory/event keys.
That way they can make this more fair for guilds who normally only do 1-30 LT’s but cant do more.
For the many guilds out there that do 5-20 LT’s, they will never see an LT ever again.

1 Gem key additional does always give a legendary or mythic, so keys have lesser value than even LT’s.
I wonder what ‘mythic tasks’ will hold in the future if we ever get those too.

Also with the mythic pool as well as card pool getting larger, I don’t understand the reason to make it more difficult since it gets more difficult each week as new cards are added. Currently I get only a handful of legendary cards to help me ascend what I have to mythic level so I can make use of the new explore medals, otherwise medals would be worthless if I can’t ascend cards. As for mythics, we get those maybe once every 6 months, depending how lucky we are, which is still a very low rate but so exciting to get for the entire guild!

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If I had to guess, optional epic tasks doesn’t address the whole concern behind implementing them in the first place:

(I had to dig out Slyp’s original quote to see what we were talking about here.)

I guess my question is, what exactly are F2P players losing out on by these changes that supposedly make the game more P2W?

Either it’s the chance at legendary/mythic troops from LTs (doubtful), or it’s the stat boosts from completing the epic tasks. If the latter is the concern, are there these underdog guilds who can outduel more active guilds in GW, who suddenly won’t be able to? There should still be ways to play around this problem (e.g., saving up gold for GW weeks).

I had/have more to say, but most importantly –

  • I just spent a solid hour grinding D12 Explore following the Mythstone markers with 30-60 second teams (not including loading).

  • I received 0 Tokens of Anu and 0 Tokens of Nysha.

While I did receive some Gold, and other Tokens for upgrading lower- to mid-rarity troops, this session resulted in zero progress towards my goal of obtaining my first of either of these Medals.

Re-iterating the sentiments expressed in this other thread:

And this other thread:

Take-away note:

Please include some system, as was done with Arcane Traitstones in Explore*, that guarantees these high-rarity Tokens after a period of play – whether that’s Epic Tasks, Grunduluum’s Soulforge suggestion, or even something else(!).

*Bonus Mithran quote:


On a more general note, thank you for having another look at all of this and sharing your thoughts on the matter –

Sirrian’s design thoughts are my favourite design thoughts :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:.

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The entire complaint about being unfair to F2P is pointless and stupid IMO. Ive only just hit VIP 4, and that was due to the DLC that was released on steam for a few $ with the pet.

It doesnt make it unfair, it just means they have to play the game more, the same as it did before. It doesnt give anyone an unfair advantage either, just means that you either play more, across the board, or you fall behind. The same thing that every update has done for the past few years.

As to optional ET and give us the LTs instead after we do 6, your entire argument is flawed.
Doing so would mean that if you decided to do original, you get the LTs after 15mil. Instead you want to do an ET cause rewards there, then thats another 5mil before you can access it, and therefore unfair to others basically cause of FOMO.

The rewards have been buffed, to give us as much/more than before for the same equal spend. So far the only 2 complaints I have seen that had any merit, was AWR saying the cost of the 2nd task should be lower (11th being higher equal amount) same as they adjusted for 1 and 12. And the lack of LG/Mythic tokens in the rewards. Everything else has been nitpicking.

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I am sure that you can go several hours without getting any Anu and Nysha tokens.

Do they even know how depressing this is…

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It’s great that you’re trying to fix and edit something. But on the whole, you’re trying to give us what no one asked. Seriously, I’ve never heard anyone say: “Take out the mythics and legends from LT”. Or “Too many keys from LT, let’s reduce”.

In last version 5 million give 17 gem keys and 5 event keys. I want to show again that we can get with 4 LT now. 40 gem keys for 5 million and sometimes 50 Glory keys in 1LT.

I have enough medals of Cedric, Gaard and Yasmin. No more need, it’s trash. For 5 million gold I would like to see 1 token of Nysha, 1 Anu and 2 Aranaea. Token, not a Medal. It may seem strange, but we can get it for free from explore. And only Nysha and Anu are really rare.

The saddest thing is that with this news, a lot of 1000+ lvl players already have left the game. Before the first news about the 4.7, the player came to my Guild on a free place per day (sometimes per hour). All last week we played without the 30th player and two else were inactive. I see that many great Guilds in the top 500 don’t have 1-2 players or even 3-4. And they can’t find them second week. Enough that 200 top players are gone from game and 100-200 guilds not will be able to play with full team.

If there was a plan to push endgame players out of the game, it works. It will be interesting to see what happens after release of this version.

I think it would be right not to change every 2-3 days, what was a bad idea from start. Delay release for the 2020 year and ask that players really want. But I understand that the work has been done, paid for and it is necessary to release in any form. Even if the players don’t like it and they leave. I do not see any advantages to someone from this update.

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I can actually agree that I’m worried about how the additional stat bonuses will create more of a divide between the super-active and the rest – particularly in GW.

It takes it another small step away from being a skill-based competition.

I think I’d probably prefer if Guild Statue skill (stat) bonuses didn’t apply there.

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It seems like there are two possibilities:

  1. Medals are part of some grand 5.0 scheme that we can currently only see a small part of. When the full plan is implemented, everything will be obtainable. See, for example, legendary and mythic ingots now vs at launch, or the initial scarcity of arcane traitstones.

  2. Medals were implemented without the development team doing the math, and are an unintentionally broken system. A spoilery upcoming achievement might imply this is the case.

I’m trying to reserve judgment until 5.0 launches (which is weird - waiting months to enjoy a new feature properly), but many other updates this year make it hard to be optimistic. Deeds, delves, faction pets, the initial jewel distribution for epic tasks, the original Cedric medal, writs, etc.

I have a lot of fun playing this game and enjoy most of the features, but many of them feel like they weren’t mathed out before release.

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:man_shrugging:

Beats the snot out of me. To form a coherent point around this question I’d need some data about what the “average” guild is getting RE: LTs.

The only data I have is that 26-matches-per-day average which suggests “not an awful lot”, and some people would wager most guilds don’t get LTs at all. If that’s the case, how’s there so much value tied up in LTs? If “most people aren’t getting them” then arguably dangling the prize above the tasks they’re already not doing doesn’t change an awful lot. Now they’re faced with a complex choice. Suppose they re-invest money that used to go into normal tasks into Epic Tasks. They’ll get something they didn’t, but what’s the cost in terms of things they used to get?

I’m not going to sit down and crunch all those numbers. The point of systems like this in F2P games is to make it really hard to judge the value of any given thing so you can be more easily led to pay for it.

This change asks me to spend gold on new stuff that doesn’t represent new content. Pardon me if I’m not excited that the only spoilered content for an entire quarter’s update is “Hey guys we’re changing the reward structure so you get the same thing.” Maybe for 4.8 they could rename all the troops or something!

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They talked about this on the last stream. I don’t remember it that well so this might be a bit off: Some player bragged (?) about completing all achievements for GoW and wanted more. They created this to mess with him since it’s so hard to complete. The achievement name is a reference to the player: “Try this one, Geoff”.

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Once upon a time gems were included in LTs. I remember when we lost them. The rewards for ETs are better than expected. But it’s still a nerf.

I also have one request: please don’t introduce anymore new in game currencies :wink:

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…I’ll just call that an interesting design decision, and leave it at that. Thanks - I missed the stream.

wb @FL1701.

Yeah since guild tasks are limited, not unlimited like LT’s, it would make sense to add a few more gems to the guild tasks again where they are still gated, not flowing limitless.

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I’ve played games where that was an open goal from the designers, and it was considered part of the game’s charm. In general, every event had a choice between two mostly-cosmetic and soul-bound items. So nobody could ever really 100% the game. In the end, the completionists just tended to find their own goals to chase, it wasn’t a very big deal.

Thank you @Sirrian and @Saltypatra

I know the conversation’s wandered a little far afield from this, but I wanted to offer my best-guess as to why simply capping LTs doesn’t cut it for the devs.

The simplest way I think I can say it is:
That gold’s gonna go somewhere

Consider glory as an example.

It started out as a limitless resource that had a sort of “cap,” that being how much you needed for the weekly troop. Then, anything you made in excess of that number—usually only several thousand—could go to buy uncapped amounts of rewards in the form of “sinks”—either traitstones (if the player still needed them), or the infinitely more valuable event keys in the Spoils of War pack.

It flooded the system. Because, once the “cap” was reached, players knew that best practice wasn’t just to sit on inordinate amounts of glory. It was to spend those piles on the sinks that existed at the time—traitstones and event keys. The traitstones sink would eventually clog and not work anymore once a player traited all his or her troops. So buying near-infinte levels of event keys was the way to go—and this is why they, too, were eventually capped. To stop the flood.

So now I, like many others, I’m sure, buy all we can with glory each week *and still accrue massive amounts”

There’s simply nothing to spend it on at this point.

Gold is a different, but similar, nearly-identical story. A more complex story—sure—because gold has more uses and more sinks (and right now, it has a lot of sinks: LTs, Hoard Levels, Kingdom Levels—take your pick!)

But what’s the same at the core is that: if one of these sinks were capped, the gold isn’t just going away. It’s going to be funneled somewhere else. Just like glory was.

So unless every sink were capped the way glory now is (say, one fully levels one’s hoards and kingdoms and gets the 10 LTs proposed as a cap), the system would flood because players will spend if they’re able and can gain appreciable advantage(s)

tl;dr

I’d wager devs don’t want to cap LTs because they want to drain gold out of the system, and a cap inhibits their ability to do so, both directly and indirectly now and in the future

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Total agreement before and after this statement, but not during. Glory keys is the best keys! A (small) chance to get even the best troops, but cheap enough not to worry about blowing through a few thousand of them.

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