[Poll] How do you feel about the current Treasure drop rate?

For those asking for a guild-guardian system, it’s never ever going to happen. Period, full stop. You’re asking for an “Old GoW” solution to the issue. Those days are long gone and never coming back.

Crossposting, @Ashasekayi states the situation well:

As has been stated multiple times on this board, the devs are 100% fully “in” to this model, with the whole 4.X patch series serving to rewrite the game’s core systems to adopt to their new direction for the game.

When Sirrian said a couple of dev Q/A streams ago that the next few streams were going to be focused on end-gamers, most thought that meant introducing new endgame content. And while that is technically correct, what he really meant was that these updates (which I believe are not done yet), were introducing new pain points for endgame players that can’t be overcome from the breadth of one’s roster and the depths of their resource accounts.

The core similarity between all of these changes is time. All of these new changes are designed to require endgamers to invest incredible amounts of time to make any significant progress at all. Any changes to reduce the amount of time or grinding needed to achieve progress in these new systems has a literal zero chance of being implemented.

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@Lyrian, I don’t think anyone was asking, just hoping. Rebellions were built on hope. Allegedly. Way to crush my fantasy. Thanks.

It took me a second to realize what the ‘slider bar’ for Elite Level Mythic upgrades, but I would vote for that over the current gambling percentage. And be told shortly thereafter it would never happen either…

It needed to be said.

The devs, to date, appear to be quite happy with both the insufficient drop rate of shards to pull treasures, as well as the scarcity of any meaningful treasures that appear from chaos shard pulls. The issue can be resolved with adjustments to either mechanic.

But, for at least the last six months, they have not shown any willingness to budge on the matter. And I don’t see that stance changing anytime soon.

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Well, I guess everybody wants to talk about the “guild guardian style drops” thing.

Implementing a “guild guardian” style system for treasure drops (at the current drop ratios) won’t even help as much as people think, but it would be a huge boon to the overall “flow” of the system.

Right now, since rares generally hit mythic last, a guild guardian-style “cut all troops” system would only be accessible after dropping roughly 8k shards into a given kingdom (~400 portal pulls). I’ve calculated the current average xp per portal drop at roughly 31.85xp per portal opened (keep in mind this could drop significantly in the near future for reasons stated below). That gives us approximately 12470 xp after just mythicing our troops, for 8k shards. Enough to get to roughly hoard level 158 on average. This is also enough shards to require at least some participation in delve events with full daily farming clears, or heavy participation and shop purchases and some kind of constant progress.

Right now, if we went above and beyond, and spent, say, 12k shards on any given faction, while hitting the mythic treshold +4 at 8k, our average expectation of xp would be 19110, enough total xp to take a single hoard to about level 195. If we do the same calculation assuming guardian style drops (again, based on current treasure rates and ratios, full treasure drops would me avg 57.74 xp per portal), we’d get 24,288 xp. We’d be looking at roughly hoard level 210. Keep in mind this assumes you use every treasure, and regardless expect a huge amount of extra gold cost for those last 15 levels. In reality, if you can’t beat a faction at 195, you probably can’t at 210, either, but people might be more inclined to seek out those shards to push just a little bit farther if they are just a bit more effective.

The whole chaos shard system has two diminishing return points - the overall “value” of a shard with respect to significant items it can pull (treasures + troops, then the troop half the drop pool becomes “worthless” after you mythic them and we only have treasures) the amount of value you get from the things you get from the shards (you need more treasures and more gold to raise hoard levels, and the gold cost itself is another diminishing returns system). Lets also keep in mind that Chaos Shards are a gated resource only available through limited entry systems in an of itself, so there is no way to accelerate off a set timetable without also a significant amount of resource investment (as well as time).

Simply put, you can make a satisfactory diminishing returns system and keep almost everybody on a consistent reward schedule of a fairly small range without the introduction of “zeros” into your reward tables. Hoard levels already go up to level 1000 (>500k xp), a single one of which is already impossible to reach with all the treasures obtained on any given account since delving was introduced over a year ago, so any increase in the ability to get treasures after you have already completed every faction troop to mythic just translates to the ability to gain a small amount of stat points with an absurd amount of effort or real time waiting, or a combination of both. Making a small amount of stat points available for an absurd amount of extra effort and/or real-time waiting seems right on point with this series of updates.

The likely reason it “won’t happen” is because they are, for some reason, locked into the mentality that “if we do this, it will make things too easy and allow people to accelerate past the schedule we have laid out”. And by that I mean, I don’t think level 500 faction teams (for most delves) are for the most part even supposed to be beatable without just throwing yourself at them over and over or buying your way past them. Theres now a ton of ways to raise your stats a bit that, when you combine them all, raise your chances of getting a good run, but its still a banging head on wall situation for a lot of them. This amount of stat differential won’t even put a dent in any pace of these current systems while appeasing the people that want to put in 20 times the effort for 2% more of the gain. Theres very little downside here, even coming from the angle of “we want this to occupy x amount of time”.

And now I’ve gone in derailed my own thread.

Anyways, as some of you might have guessed, the reason I’m bringing this up in the first place is because treasure drop preview rates for portals aren’t even close to what we are getting now (and never were). Reading between the lines based on the information I’ve received, when the issue is “corrected” (which will happen eventually whether or not I press the issue now, just like with tributes someone will notice randomly, and I want to get everyones opinions out now before a change is made), it will likely result in the rates being hastily adjusted to the rates displayed.

Currently, we are getting over 50% overall treasures rate (current state stated 30%), and the rate of the total drop pool of each treasure is dropping higher than the stated rate in nearly all cases (we are currently getting about ~3x gold rings, ~2x chalices, 1.5x crowns, ~1.3x crowns/sacred treasures, lamps and gold rings are pretty close to the stated rates). The ratios within the treasure pool now significantly favor gold rings, though. The avg xp per portal pull at the stated rates would be about 21.075 (though if this is done and guild guardian style drops are implemented, we get 70.25 avg xp per portal pull after everything is mythic +4, and mythic +4 becomes easier). My estimate for shards to get mythic +4 all under the new rates wouldn’t change much (avg expectation of 10 legendary copies would be just over 7140 - rounded to 7200, since almost nobody does draws of 1, significantly more than the others for these drop rates, so thats our average benchmark). Using this paradigm, our average xp 7200 shards would be 7587 - enough for hoard level 122. An additional 4.8k shards (total 12k) under the “true rate” would leave us at 12645 xp, about hoard level 159, roughly where we get now for spending 8k… so you’d have to push 50% harder for the same exact outcome as now using “true rates”. If we used those additional 4.8k shards on this same faction with the “guardians rule” in effect, we’d get a total of 24447… hoard level of about 211 - roughly the same place we get now for spending 12k shards with “Guardian Rule” with the current drop rates. Either way, you have still have to push way harder to have this many extra shards per month and overcome the diminishing returns for gold as well.

If they see this and nerf the rates to the “true rates” without adding anything to counterbalance they are effectively making a decision to make things harder for people that are already complaining it is too hard. So if this is done, the best way would be to accompany it with the “guild guardian drop system” boost - a treasure nerf for casuals looking to just get the troops or mythic them while only slightly reducing the amount of shards they would need to reach either of these goals; and in the same range of total treasure xp value for hardcore players, more if they pull 12k shards per month (keeping in mind treasure xp required does not scale linearly with hoard levels, so that significantly more xp isn’t that much more stats). Thus, the overall timetables for any given goal remain safe while creating an environment that feels less “wasteful”.

I was going to make this argument after I showed my full math on just how far off everything is right now related to the portal drops, but I guess now is a good a time as any to bring it up.

As a heads up, I probably will end up forcing the issue soon because the existence of a completely incorrect (like, not even close) drop rate display when it has been vehemently stated (multiple times, and now again recently) to be configured from the same data the server uses for drops could be indicative of a larger problem (but hopefully just the wrong table is being displayed). Also, historically, if they do notice before the issue is forced they will probably, summarily and without warning, change the drop rates behind the scenes to match the rate displays and not the other way around, won’t do a news post until they get called out for doing this, and be impervious to any discussion about changing the rates because it was a “bug the whole time”. I sincerely hope that doesn’t happen. So sorry in advance for any nerfs that come from this (but I’ll totally take credit for the buffs).

tl;dr: Regardless of what the actual treasure rates end up as, Guild Guardian style treasure drops would be a good way to facilitate small stat growths with huge effort that is right in line with deeds(l15 kingdoms)/medals/elite levels.

Smallest actionable feedback (If any devs happen to be reading this): If you have all troops in a faction at mythic +4, only treasures will drop there. In terms of overall delve levels, and therefore stat gains, this will convert to, the effect is relatively minor, it would compound nicely with other recent systems, while appeasing a great deal of players, especially if something happens to be nerfed…

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Posts such as the above make me wish we had the ability to declare regions inside them (C# style), and the ability to like regions independently of each other.

Because I would like every single paragraph of the above post separately if I had the option, to drive home how much I agree with the statements made.

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I just found this thread cause I was getting sick of the damn rates. I barely have enough treasures ever for anything. I don’t mind that getting all troops to mythic takes like 7-9k shards. That doesn’t bother me. The problem is I get fuckall treasures. 99% of the time I’m using those shitty Chalices to up my level by 1 at a time at a cost of 100-200k per level. It’s beyond stupid. Especially delves which are extremely difficult.

The highest one I’ve had so far is Sunken Fleet at 299. It was a real pain and RNG but finally managed. Now as for some of the older delves, like Fang Moor and Frostfire Keep, I can’t even bother sometimes. It’s clear I need a treasure hoard of at least 300+ to have a decent chance at it. My only option is to waste time by “farming” (if you can call it that).

Either they lift the stupid 3/day rule or the do it like the guardians: 4+ of each troop and they’re gone. Only treasures left. Heck, make it so that this only applies when you have ALL the delve troops, not just the ones for one delve (so people don’t use that delve to get only treasures if you’re too greedy about it).

Anything to break this stupidty that is the “daily delve”. Or better yet, make Pure Faction 500 a free run. Don’t make it cost sigils. They’re hard and it’s enough to have the wrong room show up and you’re guaranteed to fail no matter what. For example; City of Thieves. I haven’t even done the 300 PF cause I can’t be bothered. You apparently NEED a cedric room to even have a fighting chance. I don’t even know how people deal with the rearranging of the teams but that’s besides the point.

Anyway, hoping they make a change but given how this game is profit driven and player ideas come at a distant second, I don’t have high hopes. At least I can voice an opinion on the forums. Hope it’s OK to “revive” old threads cause my other option is to make a new one. I dunno but I guess this is the better option?

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It took a bit of convincing to get the drop rates to what they are now. Looking back to 2019, was it the right decision? Idk. That said, I doubt the devs would take additional action to set it to better drop rates for the higher rarity treasures.

If you are looking for strategies, I got lost around post #1914 in the super duper mega thread, but there are links to be found. Good luck finding them. Mine don’t work, because the devs broke the forum somehow, and aren’t fixing that either. (I don’t like the work-around. It hurts my eyes.)

I’m low on treasures. At the moment, I only have coins and rings left, ouch. But, the low drop rate doesn’t actually bother me. The goal is likely to make people take time to farm delves for more shards or to blow through a ton of gold.

I remember when I just started delves, it took forever to get troops. Back then, I would’ve preferred an even lower treasure drop rate to get those troops.

Just FYI, I cleared mine without potions at hoard 365. :sob:

Wow THIS is actually improved? What hot garbage was it before? I knew this was an old thread and I was also gonna ask what actually came of it but apparently not much…

@Snooj

Just FYI, I cleared mine without potions at hoard 365. :sob:

Lol that’s criminal considering the cost of upgrading when treasures are so damn rare… Well, I’m not really looking forward to that but then again, what are my options really, lol.

It was never actually “improved” (unless you count the couple days where it was nerfed despite them saying they wouldn’t before fixing it), but it came pretty close to being nerfed. Edit: If I’m being techinically correct, there was a very slight, likely accidental “improvement” on the rates due to them using sampled rates from the old tables being incorrectly parsed to set up the new tables instead of just, you know, using math to make them exactly correct that resulted in a very slightly higher incidence of mythic treasures for instance, but its barely perceptible.

The rates as they are now are due to a bug in the way the table was parsed that we had to fight to get legacy’d in. The original intended portal drop rates were about 30% treasures 70% troops. A small portion of this is the treasures people actually care about (lets say, Epic+), but we came very close to the “intended” rates being a thing when it was “fixed” after there had been multiple complaints about the rates being too low already (I made this thread before bringing up the fact that the displayed 70troop/30treasure being not correct) and several system designed to make the delves more doable by injecting more stats, which removing potential treasures from the pool would run counter to.

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Pretty much what @Mithran said.

Because of the flawed implementation of the drop tables for chaos shard pulls, drops were technically better that was originally designed for chaos shard pulls. After much evidence from the community was presented to the devs, the devs decided to formalize the flawed implementation as the “official” drop table rates as those rates had been already used by players in-game for multiple weeks.

The net result is that chalices drop more often than was originally intended and the upper rarity treasures slightly more than intended.

For reference, this is the thread in question where the devs’ conclusions were announced:

That said, the long-term impact of the erroneous rates on the Underworld is minimal. This is likely the unspoken reason why the devs decided to keep the flawed rates in-game. Although the rates for upper rarity treasures were boosted above their designed values, their increase is small enough that high-end treasures are still too rare to be easily obtained via farming.

The intended supplemental method to acquire the upper rarity treasures is via gems in Daily Deal offers (crowns and lamps) or by microtransaction (sacred treasures). This is not going to change in the future. As mirrored in multiple other progression methods (deeds, medals, etc.), their intent is for players to farm these resources at limited rates and then supplement those resources with additional gem and cash purchases. And yes, as a method of monetization, that means setting acquisition rates of these resources via farming to be low enough to encourage players to seek out these purchasing opportunities, however they are presented to players.

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Well in short it all boiles down to monet as per usual and I get that. They are also free to have however low rates they want. Ultimately it’s their game and we can either play or not.

However the current system is extremely dumb. You need high hoard levels. Treasures are rare as all hell. You don’t get anything worthwhile if you fail a delve (trying for pure ones) and you’re limited to 3 a day. The entire design from start to finish is really either extremely stupid or greedy, or heck, both?

At any rate, I wanted my dislike documented and see if anyone had brought up the different ideas. Seeing an old thread being the only thing available and there being basically no changes made does discourage one tocask for anything at all in the future tho.

I’m just curious, aside from Sunspear reversion, have they listened to any big changes and implemented them? Would love a thread that documents those to maybe encourage people to come forward with suggestions.

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The design is very similar to other systems that have been put into place for very long-term goals. Players can potentially earn small amounts of progress towards the Underworld daily, but perhaps outside of Delve Tuesdays, never really make giant leaps of progress in any given day after that faction’s initial release weekend. Players are meant to slowly grind out shards with the 3 runs per day, with the opportunity to purchase more runs for gems on Tuesdays.

Personal opinion, but I don’t believe that the devs intended Underworld factions to be “finished/maxed” for a very long time, similar to how the current expectation is multiple years of time for kingdoms to reach Power 30 / Level 20 via troop releases, Books of Deeds, and Imperial Deeds. It is supposed to take a very long time to gather the required amount of treasures to raise faction Hoards. The fact that they can be currently competed, I believe is a technical oversight in the original design of delves (one I anticipate to be addressed if some future incarnation of delves come into play). The faction hoard bonuses at kingdom Levels 17 and 19 strongly suggest that completing PF500 runs were designed around achieving these currently unavailable bonuses (Yes, before someone calls this out, I know that it is technically possible to use all of the Books of Air Deeds from Campaign 3 to allow a single Yellow kingdom to reach 17… but I seriously doubt that anyone saved up the 10 Imperial Deeds to actually do this outside of trying to claim some kind of worldwide first in the screenshot thread).

When it comes to changes that can affect the monetization of the game, they won’t.

And as many have said in multiple posts on this forum, the bulk of the content for the last year or longer has generally revolved around the increasing montetization of the core gameplay loops. The Next Big Thing is coming in 5.5 (the update after the next one). It is a fairly safe bet to say that whatever this thing will be, it will also be monetized in some way.

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My advice would be to not take any hoard past 200. The cost is just too much both in treasures and in gold. For those delves that require higher hoards you have 2 options. Option 1: save up about 3000 gems and do it on a Tuesday. Option 2: be patient, eventually you will have a +100% kingdom bonus giving you an effective hoard of 400. This may take a couple years but the option is there.

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Yes ofc monetization drives it all but the mere thought of implementing something that’s supposed to take YEARS is kinda shitty if you ask me. I don’t mind it tho as again it’s their game, they do whatever they want.

@Fleg

My advice would be to not take any hoard past 200. The cost is just too much both in treasures and in gold. For those delves that require higher hoards you have 2 options. Option 1: save up about 3000 gems and do it on a Tuesday. Option 2: be patient, eventually you will have a +100% kingdom bonus giving you an effective hoard of 400. This may take a couple years but the option is there.

The thing is, it’s easier to get the gold to up hoard than to rely on getting those books. I still haven’t gotten enough to 15 all kingdoms, let alone starting to look at the books. Farming gold is at least not too hard.

let’s assume, removed troops would be replaced with tresures of same rarity, so:

no common and no mythic treasures involved

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That’s…not how it would work. At least, not how it’s currently proposed.

What has been proposed is that the initial roll — troops vs. treasures — would default to the latter. The drop rates wouldn’t change, it would just ensure someone would never end up with a pile of 100 extra faction troops.

If, instead, the troop table drops were just replaced with their respective rarity treasures, the dilute “problem” currently faced would still exist, and would do even less to make mythic treasures more accessible, which is all most people really care about.

More King’s Crowns? Meh. More Genie’s lamps? Okay, that’d be good. More of both would be better than what we currently have.

But I’m not sure they can replace a troop drop table with a second treasure drop table — I’d imagine it’s far easier for them to just drop a table roll as proposed, rather than make a check for which initial table to roll, then roll them both :man_shrugging:

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It wouldn’t change the rate of mythic and common treasure, but it would increse the numbers for everything from rare to legendary. Increase would be rather small for Genie Lamps. Nothing crazy… guess it would look like this:

Drop rate from portal
basic after change
Treasure 55,00% 100,00%
common 7,48% 7,48%
rare 24,53% 48,02%
ultra-rare 12,98% 25,98%
epic 6,05% 12,04%
legendary 2,97% 5,49%
mythic 0,99% 0,99%
Faction 45,00% 0,00%
rare 23,49% 0,00%
ultra-rare 13,00% 0,00%
epic 5,99% 0,00%
legendary 2,52% 0,00%

If you look at this and think of “usability”. Only somehow ‘usefull’ changes would be:
epic from 6,05% to 12,04%
legendary from 2,97% to 5,49%

(i personaly dont use treasures below legendary for hoards, but some people on forums claimed they were also using epic ones).
Everything else → doesn’t matter (either drop rates dont change, or aren’t usefull).

So… nothing “game changing”, it would still be a grind, but slightly more “user friendly”

Drop rate from portal
basic after change 1 table only
Treasure 55,00% 100,00% 100%
common 7,48% 7,48% 13,6%
rare 24,53% 48,02% 44,6%
ultra-rare 12,98% 25,98% 23,6%
epic 6,05% 12,04% 11%
legendary 2,97% 5,49% 5,4%
mythic 0,99% 0,99% 1,81%
Faction 45,00% 0,00% 0,00%
rare 23,49% 0,00% 0,00%
ultra-rare 13,00% 0,00% 0,00%
epic 5,99% 0,00% 0,00%
legendary 2,52% 0,00% 0,00%

I went ahead and added a column for the scenario where troop pulls are disregarded, and re-drawn as treasures. Honestly not that big a difference. More common troops, and a few more mythics, but surprisingly little difference otherwise.

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yeep, basicaly pool of interesting troops says kind of the same, with biggest differance being almost double increase in number of mythic treasures:

rarity base changed 1 table
epic 6,05% 12,04% 11%
legendary 2,97% 5,49% 5,4%
mythic 0,99% 0,99% 1,81%

If i would guess:
most possible scenario is that drop tables wont change at all
other than that, both options are reasonable, as they would at least give “a bit more” treasures for those with maxed faction troops, development might go either way