(Not so new) idea to get rid of the endless loops by AI


#1

I am 100% sure it’s been posted before, but I just can’t find the topic.

The current grief meta (and a number of previous ones as well (Webspinner meta and Goblin meta for example)) is based on endless looping by AI teams.

What if, instead of nerfing all current meta troops (except Wisp, 'cause that one is just insanely OP for an ultra rare, as at least a dozen topic clearly point out!!!), the endless extra turns are removed?

And then I mean for both human and AI. Just put a cap on the consecutive extra turns (3-5 for example). So put a counter in and after the maximum has been reached a 4- or 5-match or a spell that earns an extra turn would not get the extra turn but the opponent can move (no idea how hard this would be to code though)…

That would eliminate one of the main complaints (endlessly watching the AI take extra turns) from the game without changing too much.


#2

It would, however, completely murder a very popular play style: the hard control teams that are designed to chain together and never cede the turn to the AI.

The endless loop thing is only a problem when the AI gets extra turns essentially for free from its actions: if dropped gems are likely to form 4+ matches, or spawned gems create turn-extending shapes, or if spells have an extra turn component. This is more of a problem than it used to be because all three of those kinds of troops (mass exploders, mass spawners, and extra-turn troops) are more common than they used to be.

It’s a power creep issue that is coming to a head. It could be managed by massaging drops and spawn locations to prevent bonus turns, but we have seen in the past that players complained about that code even when it was working as intended (and they complained mightily when said code was bugged!).


#3

I know. I use Mercy-Alchemist-Hellcat-Gard’s a lot, which is one of those “chain together” teams. Those would become a lot less powerful if a consecutive extra turn counter was introduced. But right now the endless (lucky / undeserved) extra turns are so bad that I can’t even find the motivation to play PVP and use this team.

The alternatvie is of course to implement a different RNG. IMHO the RNG in this game is hopelessly flawed. It is far to streaky to be a true random number generator, so I think that’s where the main flaw of the game resides. But I expect this will be even more difficult to change.


#4

The problem is not “new”. The problem was hidden by the AI always choosing skulls and breaking the loops.

The new problem is that there is a lot more ready-made cascades. AI doesn’t even have to choose how to fill, it revs up and go.

Also, it’s just me or the RNGness of, say, Dungeons and GW is not exactly the same?


#5

I can confirm that AI behaves differently. I didn’t have the honor to analyze it for the Dungeons as they end before they start - but AI does behave differently in PvP / GW - and I would dare to say even when fighting players directly.

  • Fighting players directly often ignores troops, skips casts and gives invading player unfair advantage.
  • In PvP - the ground gets more competitive as in troops will give the advantage only if it’s looping for way too long - also - they usually do not have internal checks.
  • GW - AI is able to count gems on the board and adapt its cast to it - it can track player’s mana and decide to skip 1-2 turns in order to drain the relevant amount. But (I think) it still skips a turn after a certain amount of loops.

To the OP:
How to get rid of the looping - I guess one of the ways would be something more strict but more effective, also targeting other issues - while not touching any of the game-styles.
… To reduce mana income by removing surges completely. If there is not enough mana - there won’t be enough gem spawning - not enough loops.
Game would become more strategic and responsive - with less deaths on turn 1. Double wisps couldn’t fill by 1 mana surge, either.


#6

A few easy easy fixes to the current problems:

Trolls back to simple doubling, not doubling +4. That would be more in line with their cost.

Wisps don’t get an extra turn. They’re strong enough without it.

Kraken devour down to 25%. They already create mana and do a bunch of damage, plus the trait.

Most importantly: If you have frozen troops and you get a match 4+ on a frozen troop color, you still lose the turn, but it also “breaks” the freeze on all frozen troops.


#7

Maybe we need to get rid of devour and freeze altogether. Only for defense of course. Trolls should only create 5 gems and wisps need to be removed from the game entirely


#8

Of course, an idea I was toying with possibly mentioning is a little more drastic…

Which is no extra turns at all… like I said, a bit much. We’d be playing chess with the board, no crazy crap happening. Not that this would be a bad thing, just not in the spirit of the game perhaps.


#9

I don’t think they can realistically change the current game modes (PvP and GW) to disallow Extra Turns on 4+ matches, but I think it’s an interesting concept for new modes, and could also serve to bump up the dungeon difficulty.


#10

Yep, you are firmly back into my troll book. Seriously, you doing this on every thread was old a few days ago. Are you just not able to control yourself?

On topic… it could be coded that only 4 and 5 matches either directly matched or ones as a direct result of a gem conversion would give you an extra turn. Any “skydrop” matches would of course give you mana, just no extra turn. This would keep the strategy of loop teams, but cut rng type losses almost completely down.

I know that would result in you setting up the opponent for an extra turn match, but that happens now and would go both ways. It would also put exploders exactly in place…they will fill mana quickly, but not cause a loop fest right after.

I know Vangor…eliminate extra turns, nerf explodes and just give players an auto win. Now there’s no reason for you to comment.


#11

I kind of like that idea, except that part of the fun/strategy of the game is recognizing where you can “chain” a 4-match by slotting in a drop, something the AI is unable to do. If it were possible to constrain your limiter to “gems that were not visible at the start of the turn cannot be used to gain an Extra Turn,” that’d help, but that might be too difficult to track.


#12

I thought about that too, but decided there is no way to reasonably code a perfect scenario. So I would gladly trade off the strategy of possibly getting an extra turn which happens far less for the endless skydrops that happen far more.


#13

What? A brotha cant have a change of heart and mind? I am now firmly in the nerf camp! So we are on the same side and i will thank you to not call me a troll.

And btw thank you for telling me i cant comment…


#14

I said no need, of course you decided you needed.


#15

Yes I Decided… Thats the key innit? I am a growed up and i can make decisions all by myself! Now if you please, i am muting this thread so respond or dont… I wont see it


#16

Would it, though? Assign each gem an “board_origin” attribute. Initializes to “false”, and whenever the player/AI can make a move, all gems on the board have their origin attribute changed to “true”. Extra-turn matches only count if all gems involved have an origin of “true”.


#17

I…worry that this would have bugs. Let’s just say. :slight_smile:


#18

Here is an idea.
Give player classes a « Heroic Power »

For exemple, say, an Orbweaver could Web everyone. Maybe a Warrior could deal damage to the first ennemy. Etc

The Heroic Power activates after 5 extra turns. Then your turn ends.

Put a 5 star counter on top. As you get extra turns, the stars fill up, then a big voice says « Heroic Power! ». It gets cast, and your turn ends.

(Player troop does not need to be in the team)