How to solve the "Whitehelm problem"

After reading I don’t know how many threads about this issue, each of which inevitably breaks down into arguments or memes or arguments about memes, I will hereby fix it for you:

Instead of PvP battles all being fought in the defender’s home kingdom, have every battle fought in the kingdom of the banner which the defending team is flying.


Love this idea and have suggested it myself… many moons ago… in thread long forgotten…
So +1000 from me! :wink:


Personally, I like how it is on console, where we just get a random traitstone regardless of the kingdom or banner. Banners would probably tend to concentrate on a small number, too, just not as small a number as home kingdoms does.


@Stan I have been VERY envious of console players for this ONE reason. This seems like a simple fix that should have been implemented a LOOOONG time ago, imho. :wink:


I would rather a system that Targeted trait stones you were missing as weighted in the random, not guaranteed though.

However anything is better than Whitehelm over and over and over…

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Having PVP distribute an even spread of the different stones would put everyone on an equal footing and they can fine tune with Explore, which is made for targeting.

The weighted system doesn’t seem like the kind of thing that the devs would do. Also, the number of stones that I have or don’t have doesn’t necessarily indicate what I want or need.


But there is also game lore to consider. The console system was implemented by a different dev team back in the day, without any regard to lore, and I don’t see the master devs going along with a completely random system.

That’s a good point, though I honestly don’t see a clear connection between the lore and the stone colours, or at least how the stone colours would relate to the kingdoms or banners specifically, rather than the troops involved in the battles. Ultimately, it is all about game mechanics and doesn’t represent any kind of real-life analogue.

There is some connection between colours and troops, though I do admit it’s tenuous at times. Eg Brown = Earth-y stuff, ergo Dwarves are mostly brown. But Deep Borer is a Dwarf in a mech suit, so Red for the flames needed to power it (similar to other mechs) and blue for the water required to keep it from overheating, or something.

I wonder how spread out the banners really are use-wise… @Sirrian any comment on this?

So I initially mis-interpreted what captain_video said as “have traitstones drop based on the mana colours in the banner the team is flying”. While this isn’t what was said, I thought it was an interesting idea, so I went off and did a bit of research anyways. Although I’m not sure if it will fix the problem or just change it. Caveat: We don’t have the stats of how OFTEN a banner is used. So this is all just assuming that all banners are used equally.

I decided to take a look at the banners we currently have, and I my conclusion is we’d just end up with a different problem.
There are two ways to implement the mana colour as drop chance idea.

  1. Any mana on the banner, be it positive or negative, has an increased chance to drop.
  2. Only the positive mana colours have an increased chance to drop
    2a. Negative colours also have a lower chance to drop. (ie don’t want yellow stones? use a -yellow banner)

So I broke down all the banners into their colours and +/-s and came up with this:

As we can see, Green is the most underrepresented colour in general, and more so if you take into account the +/- values (Total Mana column), and Blue is over represented in overall Mana, although it is more in line with the other high end ones if we only look at the number of banners it shows up on.

Conclusion: Going on the mana colours probably isn’t the best idea, as we’d probably end up with a glut of Blue (and possibly Purple and Yellow) and a deficit of Green. Kingdoms is probably a better solution, but it would depend on the spread of banner usage, which only the devs have the data for currently.


I would prefer the PvP battles be straight up random with no weight considered. That way there is no problem even though rngesus will likely still give me tons of Wind/yellow as have far to much already (majors and minors, still need others).


Whether it was considered a glitch by the dev team or not, they had a working solution to the problem already and threw it away in favor of the mess we have now.

Revenges taking place in the home kingdom of the attacker already was a weighted and organic system. It made sense, and it gave both a reason and an incentive to change your home kingdom which benefited no only yourself because every revenge would take place there, but also others to change, meaning you’d get less Whitehelm. Random distribution is a pale shell of that as far as control goes - you’d have a 1 in 1050 chance of any given specific arcane from PvP given pure random distribution. There is no comparison between explore in PvP if this were the case, as this is still “explore or nothing” with respect to getting the Arcane stones to trait even a common or rare in a reasonable amount of time, let alone a legendary. At endgame, when we are swimming in arcanes and have the benefit of many, many past glory packs and a quick jaunt over to explore for an hour or so can get two to four arcanes, this is not really a problem, but early on, the lack of choice for Arcanes specifically in PvP kinda forces you into explore, which is painfully slow at this stage for very little tangible benefit until you can get that one or two arcanes you need to actually drop. It is a problem that didn’t exist when I was low level and shortly after traits were added, but does now.

Home kingdom weighting (even if via revenges, like before) brings personal stone influence to about a third for the casual player, “rarer” or more needed stones being featured more often, and brings the average chance for a stone you actually want up to about 1 in 125, meaning a casual player could still pull one stone they wanted a week. This is in line with my experiences with the system before the PvP changes - I could set my home kingdom and gradually get a few stone I wanted, in PvP, in a reasonable amount of time, without having to wait months for glory packs or straight grind it. The current system may be terrible, but random distribution is only marginally better with respect to arcanes. Defending team’s banner also leaves any kind of personal choice off the table, since its always someone else making the choice and the choice doesn’t affect you personally and is made for entirely different reasons, which is why it will never work as well as a system where the selfish choice is also the one that benefits the system as a whole.


i like this idea and i also suggested it myself a while ago :laughing:
(probably some time after @efh313 :sweat_smile:)

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And you wonder why you run out of likes :stuck_out_tongue:


Whitehelm problem? Try this. No more Whitehelm!


That does a lot of damage, shame whitehelm is protected by a barrier. It leaves status effects of poison and burn, whitehelm is covered with having cleanse. (would a nuke even work on whitehelm given this info?)

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