I knew that it wouldn’t be long before people whined about Manticore - not because it was necessarily overpowered, but because it prevented them from completing a battle in 60 seconds. I am pretty much dumbfounded by this, as I have never lost a battle or even been threatened by a Manticore. Khorvash? Sure, that hits pretty hard. Manticore just makes you use a little bit more strategy, provide decoys, whatever the case may be. Even the threads whining about it said that it did not affect the outcome of the battle.
Why, then, was its power reduced so drastically? Manticore was nearly useless on defense already, and this is what people were complaining about. Strong invade teams are not seen, but it isn’t too hard to figure out what they are. Manticore helps players have a chance against the overpowered teams (and we all know what those are). Now, there is little to no reason to use it. Manticore’s mana drain ability (indeed, any mana drain ability) is most useful against the extremely strong enemies. All of my battles yesterday did not at all provide any benefit - I would drain Famine, but then the next turn, they’d match three, get a mana surge, and with the kingdom bonus be right back were they were. This did nothing in effect - Manticore’s attack went up, yes, but it didn’t do anything to stop the enemy. THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE THE ENTIRE POINT OF MANA DRAINING.
It’s upsetting that the developers caved to whining about a troop that is incredibly unbalanced in its usefulness (next to none on defense and nearly all on offense) when the most obvious troop problems show up with defense troops. There is little reason to use Manticore now, and it was provided as a counter to the already broken cards in the game.
Removing the attack bonus would make more sense. As of right now, the mana drain ability provides no benefit other than setting the enemy back a turn and maybe two if you’re lucky. Of course, in either case, I will argue that it actually is a net detriment, not a positive, and as such there’s no reason to use it.
It’ll happen every time quick, no-think winning is threatened.
There are other mana draining troops, like spider queen and morthani’s will. They aren’t empowered, but if your strategy is to mana drain high cost enemies that shouldn’t be a problem for you.
I disagree. Manticore was too strong for that mana cost. Either the drain went down or the mana cost went up.
It’s naive to think the devs cave in to whining on this here forum. They adjust based on usage data, and their own views.
The usage stats showed his main use was at end game. It will be interesting to see what usage he gets throughout the userbase a week after the next kingdom is released.
Manticore wasn’t the first troop with mana drain, or even the first that only took 9 mana. It was simply way better, and did way more, than any comparable troop. Something had to change, though they also had the option of buffing some of the other mana drain troops to be more comparable.
I think they should have increased his cost rather than negate his usefulness. I would have rather seen him get less attack and increase his cost rather than nerf his denial ability.
Now he’s just like a reskinned (slightly different) Spirit Fox, whom I already didn’t like due to the low
Mana drain. I just don’t see the point of the tiny drains. Because, like OP said, the next turn they just get it right back and you’re no better off because in order to use the skill that bought you another turn you have to end your turn, so it just balances out to be a time waster unless there’s another great perk to using that skill.
On a side note, I hope they make a troop that drains mana and gains an extra turn! With a card like that I could understand a smaller drain.
For Manticore, his other perk is attack. If you didn’t play him as your skull damage dealer then this is rather pointless.
In short, I wish that he would have remained that hard counter to high mana troops (and Mercy) and they instead would have increased his cost and significantly lowered his attack gained. That would have been better for me anyways
I can agree with much of that. I’d have no problem with him being a full drain if he cost say 12-13.
I’d also have liked a manticore to be a big legendary, rather than a two-a-penny rare…
That was a pretty drastic double nerf for sure… Almost Blizzard-style overkill nerf, even.
If anyone is wondering, as far as The Arena is concerned, Manticore went straight from elite to garbage in that one update.
Granted, the very fact that it used to be a top pick in a game mode in which an entire part of its spell is literally useless (Stun) speaks volumes of just how ridiculously powerful it originally was…
Still, it went from “suck those 16 mana, gain 12 attack” to “suck 7 out of those 16 mana, gain 4 attack”, so… RIP, Arena Manticore.
Manticore would have been a really cool legendary!
I think his original power would have been more justified had he been legendary
This gentleman I would say is right all the ppl that disagree is just the ones that want it easy and fast wins that’s all to it, Khorvash, famine something should of been done about these two that’s overpowering but I guess as long as it dosent slow the game and gives easy wins its ok just like the pvp top almost 5 ppl every week that clearly have to be cheating to get the points they be having but long as its not slowing the game I guess that’s ok to so instead of putting time in them clearly cheating they put the time into a manticore that wasn’t that bad. Good looking out dev’s we see what u all think is important.
I do sort of think this was an overnerf also, but come on! Biggest pain in the ass ever. Used on every single team. I’m not complaining.
Definitely could have had a higher cost though. Offset the Empowered trait a bit, rather than just making it lousier at all times. The parallel with Spirit Fox doesn’t help either. Aaaaand the attack buff maybe could have stayed somewhere in the middle of pre- and post-nerf numbers - I mean, mine gains 13, that’s not terrible.
I still use it on my attack lineup in #1 slot. Delaying tactic on big spells, stun for lead troops with defensive traits like gorgotha, an attack boost to make skull spam more potent.
Oh, and it can’t be snared or frozen, so I never lose my skull damage or my turn on skull cascades
I guess this will mean the end of the recent fad builds that I obliterate with my Ma’b Itch team
I lost a LOT of matches to Manticore and I still think the nerf was too much.
I think @Mekkalyn explained the situation perfectly, especially why the new version of the troop is so unsatisfying.
On a related note, I was also thinking about how much I miss old Mab. She’s still a nice strong troop but it was really fun to loop those extra turns.
Something I don’t think has been mentioned is that between the change to a set amount of mana drain and the lack of attack scaling from the mana drained … you now just use it. Whenever its charged (and they have some mana). So all the time. There’s nowhere near as much strategy (not to say there was a lot involved before), there’s no ‘save it for that big thing that’s charging up’. Its … boring gameplay.
I won’t argue that Manticore was slightly overpowered, but the fact remains that an Empowered/Full Mana Drain troop is one of the only chances you have to win against a Maw/Mercy “you lose” board littered with yellow and purple gems. There are games that are almost completely unwinnable without Manticore’s full mana drain as you simply have no chance to charge another card’s full mana drain ability.
I just don’t see how this came about other than the fact the people who rack up 1500+ PvP wins a week couldn’t do that with Manticore slowing them down. It doesn’t affect who wins, but it does affect how long it takes. That fact in and of itself seems to be the reason for it.
As a mid-game player (sub-500), Manticore gave me the opportunity to fight just about any team and have a chance. Now, I’m back to avoiding a good chunk of teams, and it seems like the only reason is because other people couldn’t win as fast as they normally do.
Maw/Mercy became a non-issue for me with Khorvash/Silvanimora/Green Seer/Valkyrie. Full lockdown between Entangled, Mana Drain, and Stun.
While I do think increased mana cost may have been the better way to go, I still find him to be more in-line with the idea of an Ultra Rare troop.
Pre-update Manticore was practically Legendary status, minus the usual cost. It’s the obnoxious mixture of full mana-drain, Empowered, and the ever troublesome Impervious trait. Stun was nothing more than icing on a cake, while the attack gain made the last few moments of a match very intense.
(I did enjoy that intensity. Never knew when a skull match might fall in a 1-on-1 fight to the death!)
The problem I have (or had) with Manticore is how it had five entire powerhouse perks going for it. Legendaries don’t even get that sort of treatment! Closest I can think is the old Queen Mab with four powerhouse perks.
For comparison on what “Powerhouse Perks” means to me–
Previous Manticore: (None of this even counting his cheap-as-hell mana cost.)
- Impervious (Which feels more like 3 perks in 1)
- Full Mana Drain
- Stun (Trait nullification)
- Immense Attack Gain
So that’s loss of spell & traits, turn one! Mixed with total immunity and high attack. Fun…
Previous Queen Mab:
- Winter Veil (E-Z Freeze)
- Arcane (High Magic Stat)
- Strong AoE Mana Burn
- Nearly Guaranteed Extra Turn (10 Blue Gems? Pfft~, piece of cake!)
On defense, these work half as well as in the player’s hands. (Which is why people ran two! )
Queen Mab’s had two of these perks changed and made less reliable. Manticore got equal treatment. Two powerhouse perks altered, somewhat less reliable. Still leagues above other Ultra Rare troops in my opinion.
Also, all this talk about “end-gamers just mad w/o easy wins”, when the people upset with the Manticore change were using him for the same reason. (Seriously, what team couldn’t Manticore fit into?)
I feel like all of the tiny mana drains should be increased to a baseline 10.
That’s almost a full mana drain for a lot of troops, and it’s close to half of a mana drain for a big mana troop.
And that mana drain will at least buy you a full turn, maybe two. That has more of an impact than 7, which can more often than not be achieved in 1 turn (hence negating it altogether, your turn to cast the drain cancels out their turn to get the mana back and you’re right back to square 1 next turn, except they have their skill ready and you do not :P)
10 would at least give you a 1 turn advantage, which could be all you need.