My point was that it could be a simpler process than it currently appears. If those affected can decide whether they wanted the female troop design to change in future or for the male/female designs to be more balanced then there could be some kind of tangible consensus and result from the thread. And that is because the majority of those not affected by the issue dont care one way or another and will go along with whatever. Like me.
But i like Tau, a lot, for being dumb, it cracks me up when he refered to the knights as âFood Ridersâ⊠
But the point is: Why some, if not all, males in this game and others are "crazy driven power hunger maniacs? Well, maybe because the games will mimic the current cultural background where we have men controlling nearly all the stuff around this flying space rock and some men are still looking for more power. In fact itâs so rare that we have an ambitious woman as the main vilain, who is not seeking futile goals as eternal youth*, that i canât remember one right nowâŠ
*Futile in the sense that the pursue is centred around the preservation of beauty, immortality is something not tied to the appearance but more about loooooooooooong term, like eternal, goals.
This is the same logic my wife and I apply to GoW and our kids. The artwork is nowhere near the level of having to worry how itâll effect a childâs perception.
Interestingly, Sirrian stated that they had more interest in the game when they changed the icon from Green Seer to Skeleton. Judging from Steam stats, GoW has more users since then as well. So, the change didnât hurt to be sureâŠ
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Actually, @sirrian says the reverse is true. Revenant brings more installs than Green Seer.
Our culture is so dominated by the male perspective that itâs hard to look at it from the outside, hard to even conceive of alternatives. And the idea that the female mind is secret and incomprehensible only serves to keep it that way.
A big part of the problem is the forest/trees distinction. No one example is a problem all by itself, but to some people, it feels like pointing out an example is unfairly picking on it. Letâs say you have two forests: one is full of birch trees, while the other has a wide variety of trees, such as oak, maple, pine, and also has a few birch. When someone comments that the birch forest is only birch trees, and wishes there were a wider variety like the other forest, itâs not a criticism of birch trees themselves, or a call to burn down every one. And yet in discussions of how men and women are depicted in fiction, the same complaint about variety is often perceived that way â and itâs not always an unreasonable interpretation.
To bring it back to GoW, itâs not a problem that there are sexy women. The problem is that almost all of the women are depicted that way, while the male characters are much more diverse. People criticize individual depictions, and some of them are really awful (Shadow-Hunterâs slapped on boobs are probably the worst), but itâs not necessarily a call to eradicate those depictions, just to balance them with some more variety. Some of them may be genuinely harmful, but most are only bad in the context of their ubiquity: women are given a very limited pool of options to emulate, and most of them are structured to the benefit of men.
Part of the problem is that weâre so acclimated to the visual shortcuts: most people automatically assume a character is male, unless the character has prominent female features. Male is the default, female is a male with very visible, sexualized breasts. Sheggra is female, but most people probably donât notice. Most would probably have called Shadow-Hunter âheâ, were it not for those ridiculously huge slapped-on boobs. In the male mind, sexualization = female. We canât even conceive what a sexualized male would look like, other than effeminate. Masculine features are âuglyâ features, while feminine features are âbeautifulâ and âsexyâ features.
As a culture, we need more positive examples, but no one creator should be expected to buck the trend all by themselves. Theyâve got their own goals, and itâs understandable for them to fall back on existing tropes and stereotypes for the aspects theyâre not focusing on. Criticizing each and every example doesnât really drive the culture forrwards, it just makes creators feel like they can only fail, so they dig in and resist. Especially when they do try to challenge the status quo on one issue, and are criticized for not addressing some other issue.
So hereâs my challenge: Itâs easy to say that a good female character isnât just a man with bolted-on boobs, but that isnât actually all that helpful. What makes a character female? We need examples of good characters that arenât defined by their sexuality, but can still be identified as female.
We have plenty of examples in our culture of the ideal man, from the male perspective, and the ideal woman, also from the male perspective. But we have a dearth of examples for either sex from the female perspective. What is the female counterpart to the male-idealized-male, the perfectly muscled Conan? What is the male counterpart to the male-idealized-female, the busty, scantily clad, sexually available beauty? I canât even imagine these things, and I donât think our culture has much to say about them.
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Skeletons, damn sexy bastards⊠Setting up nearly impossible body standards to everyone⊠
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Would this not just be revisiting the same stereotypes we are trying to avoid? Typically, female âattributesâ have no logical tie to war, fighting and combat. That is why, in games, they tend to be healers (caring), indirect damage dealers (non-confrontational) or support characters (passive).
We know for a fact these attributes arenât exclusively female or that all women possess these. They are inherently female and applied to males, âweakensâ them (typically in the view of males while females actually value these attributes in males)
Seems to me this issue is, and always has been, about perception. The thing about perception is that it is intangible and varies by every individual. We see that evident here with such different views and opinions. When we attempt to control an individualâs perception, youâll never get far into an argument.
I equate this to a racist. They are allowed to have racist thoughts and beliefs but are not allowed to express them without legal repercussions. With how feminism has been treating this issue, itâs almost a step further. Not only are we not allowed to express anything perceived as sexism, we arenât even allowed to have our thoughts and beliefs.
Just as a reminder, Iâm playing devilâs advocate here. Both sides need coherent and detailed arguments in order to actually be a discussion.
Obviously. Kids with access to a device on which they can play a game like GoW have the Internet. And the artwork in this game is far from the worst offenders in the genre. There are plenty of CCG and/or match-3 games out there with manga-like artwork in which every single female character is basically the Devoted after losing her faith and joining a strip club⊠No argument there.
What I was pointing at is that, similarly, the occasional âF-bombâ dropped on this forum is peanuts compared to what the kids hear at home, at school, on TV, online, and/or in the street every day, yet it doesnât stop some users from bringing the âthink of the children!â card virtually every time someone uses inappropriate language here⊠Including at least one parent who is now telling us he wouldnât mind if the devs sexed up the game a little more if it brought more fodder to the PVP grind machine. So⊠Food for thought.
In any case, if GoW were ShadowVerse, this conversation would be pointless, as moving away from sexist stereotypes would completely break their market model and require new art for almost everything. GoW has like 10% female characters (if that!), not to mention the various creatures whose gender is completely impossible to identify visually (Venoxia will always be a she as far as Iâm concerned, and Web Spinner a he, for instance). Itâs not like sexism was a definitive trait of the game; itâs there insidiously, like a default setting, as this entire thread should make more apparent to anyone still wondering. Someone like @Sirrian even told us on several occasions that they are taking this into consideration and actually trying to steer away from those clichĂ©s. So far, we canât honestly say those attempts are a frank success, but there is hope for this gameâs art direction to evolve into something better in that regard. Add a dozen women with no focus on their sexual parts (or fake armor boobs), and maybe throw in a couple of overtly sexualized males just to set the record straight, and the overall balance would already be much better.
Also, the background image when you launch the game does have a huge impact on this perception. Having a poster child for female objectification like Green Seer as the default image was a much bigger issue than any single troopâs art in and of itself. Iâm really glad they changed it to something arguably neutral in that regard, and itâs great news that it actually works better marketing wise.
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I was following your train of thought until this paragraph. Iâm not exactly sure what you are trying to express here.
Woman that have tried to get more female character diversity and bring awareness to sexism in games have only been expressing their opinions⊠some vocally and others not so much. However, sexism in games still occurs at a high rate. Also, there are plenty of people upholding their right to have sexism in games all over media and the internet. Plenty of them are vocal about it.
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That paragraph doesnât apply to anyone here actually. However, scour the internet and the majority of feminism (and SJWs in general) has become âextremistâ. Thatâs why this topic attracts trolling and hate.
Personally, I am vastly conflicted. The actual problems need to be addressed, but there are so many problems just in the heads of people (perception). Also, many of these issues/tropes/stereotypes are either engrained in culture (these can change) or nature (these cannot change). Itâs a massive uphill battle and discussions like this one are rare. If more of them happened, there would be a lot more progress on this topic.
My opinion on that topic is completely opposed to what @Jainus and @TaliaParks expressed. I have never had problems with my son using curses (he hears them all day long at school anyway) as long as he is able to know when he can use it and with who, and as long as he is able to express himself formally when he has to.
On the contrary I have always tried to protect him from what he was to young to deal with : violence, sex⊠It seems to me very important to have a close eye on what he watches/hears/reads, to forbid when necessary, and to explain and guide as much as I can.
He is quite sensitive to sexism (I plead guilty) and had been a bit bothered by the artwork of the Green seer (he was 10) although he found she was a very useful troop.
I totally agree with that.
Changing perceptions is a huge work. GoW is âless worseâ than many games and its artwork is a little detail that doesnât bother many people, it is true. But if we consider that everything is little dĂ©tails unworthy of being discussed and changed, perceptions and society will never evolve.
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I do think that Gems of War goes overboard on some troops.
For the most part they are fine⊠as fine as any other game, anyways.
Iâm just so used to seeing women look so fake and unnatural that it doesnât really bother me anymore.
Do I wish that women could look more tough and less sleazy? Definitely.
But is it a realistic thing to ask for? Probably not.
For some reason this stuff sells. Women looking like pin ups with photoshopped boobs works, apparently. If it didnât, we wouldnât be seeing it so much, eh? I mean, itâs everywhereâŠeverywhere you look there are fake women with completely 100% unnatural bodiesâŠor bodies with barely a stitch of clothing on themâŠor clothing that reveals everything.
But, to be fair, this game is hardly worse than other games.
For some troops itâs pretty badâŠbut for most they look fine
True. Iâve seen extreme views on both sides of this topic. Iâve had some knock down drag out arguments during gamergate. However, I do think 95% of whatâs been said in this discussion has been civil. So, there is hope.
For me, I think that there will never be a day in which every single gamer approves of every single game. Itâs not about shutting sexism-filled games liked Outlaw Golf down (imho). Itâs about adding more gaming titles that arenât sexist once in awhile.
My personal hope is that Iâll get the experience I had with Left 4 Dead 2 again. When I saw that I could not only play a black female character but that she had an outfit appropriate for her character, I was seriously over the moon happy. Heck, it wasnât even the genre of game that I usually play, but I bought it and gave it a try. I actually ended up enjoying it.
Basically, people who are part of the groups that developers stereotypically cater to are oblivious to the desire of minorities and women to see themselves represented in the game world (and not as negative caricatures or props). And, I realize that they could care less about my desire to have more realistic, varied and nuanced black female characters in games. And, I could care less that they donât care. At the end of the day, I want to have my voice heard by the future game developers. I want them to know that âHey⊠I game too, and Iâm willing to spend those bucks frivolously on a game just like anyone else.â
Other than some indie games, I think BioWare is one of the few AAA studios that get it for the most part. This is why I often support them with my money.
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The best game ever for character creation will be always be Saint Rows for me. You can look like anyone you want. You can be super fat or super skinny, you can have blue skin, you can be a guy dressed in a typical female apparel (one of my friends used to play a fat guy in a dominatrix dress for instance 
), or a woman in full combat gear. Hell, my favourite character is a purple skinned woman wearing pajamas BECAUSE I CAN. 
Also, more on topic. I should start by saying I agree 100% with everything @LegendMaker said, which is not surprising seeing this is a subject we have already discussed about at great lengths in real life, so Iâm not going to repeat his arguments (hell, some of them were mine at some point 
).
Talking about the extreme views on both sides is kind of pointless to me. In ANY discussion involving a lot of people, there WILL BE extremists from one side or the other. Whether itâs a serious issue or not doesnât matter, you will find people going angry and radical on any subject. Hell, Iâve seen it happen in a topic about light bulbs once, and I still have no clue how anyone can be so adamant about that kind of subjects, so⊠Anyway, saying there are extreme sexist jerks out there and extreme feminists out there is a moot point. Yes, they exist, and? That doesnât change the issue at hands and doesnât stop anyone from talking civilly about it. Not every poster has to fall in one of these categories.
Also, even if GoW is not exactly a âsuper awful OMG so terribly sexistâ offender out there doesnât mean we canât expect BETTER. I like this game, so of course I want it to be better. I wouldnât be involved in the discussion if I didnât care. The problem of sexist female representation is a global issue, not a specific GoW one. Itâs prevalent in video games and talking about it is the only way to try and change mentality. Itâs not going to happen overnight, obviously, and itâs not going to be applied to all media at once, and itâs not going to structurally change society just because some people have spoken their minds on an Internet forum. I do think we need a global change, I just donât think thatâs what weâre talking about here. I like Gems of War. Itâs a fun match-3 with a friendly / tongue-in-cheek universe, and I want that game to carry on, the studio to thrive and to keep delivering cool content, whether for GoW or for other projects they might have in store. And I do hope that they can do that while challenging the general sexist tendencies aimed at their female characters, because I always hope for betterment. Thatâs not to say the game is bad, the general art is bad and the whole thing is offending. Itâs just to say: âHey, next time you create a female character, can she just look like an actual human being rather than an eye candy? Itâs ok, I still like you, Iâll still play you and Iâll still wish you the best. Just, you know, variety is actually pretty cool.â
And I should add, who are actually NOT minorities of the audience at all even if the stereotype of the white male as gamer is hammered everywhere. Especially in casual games like this one, which tend to have a lot more female players. Hell, my stepmother plays casual games!
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Iâve been reading this and mostly trying to keep my nose out of it. As with most things, I find myself coming down somewhere in the middle on this issue, so I donât feel like I have a lot to contribute to the discussion.
Personally, I think there are just a handful of troop images that are really troublesome. Atlanta is, by far, the worst offender. Green Seer is pretty bad. There have been some mentions of Shadow Hunter here and it was not until I really looked at the image last night that I could even figure out what was going on with her. I literally had never seen her breasts before, but now I canât imagine what I was seeing (As a cat, shouldnât she have 6 teats?). Iâm on console, so I donât see âThe devotedâ or some of the other recently introduced troops, but understand the issues there.
I wonder whether the devs would ever consider revising some of the existing art. I think a new Atlanta that actually looks like a hunter could be cool. I donât recall whether the Atalanta of Greek myth was an amazon or not, but (if I remember my undergrad Classics correctly) part of that myth was that they would cut off their own breasts so that they wouldnât get in the way of their bowstrings. There shouldnât be cards that I feel awkward about having in my lineup based on what someone might think if they walk by while Iâm playing.
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Unless Iâve misread, I donât think anyone is calling for a change of the existing cards. It would probably confuse players anyway when they canât find the troop they usually associate to a specific image. Itâs more about how it could be in the future. Although some troops would benefit from a rework (and I have to say, Iâm still hoping that one day weâll revert to the original design of the Ice Witch), itâs not what weâre asking for here.
As for the cut breast helping with archery, itâs true that this comes from the Amazons (actually, it literally means âbreastlessâ in Greek), but I donât think Atlanta is supposed to specifically be one. Although I played her quest so long ago, I just might not remember it.
You may not have been asking for a change in the existing artwork, but I think it would be worthwhile to consider. Count me as the first to call for it.
GOW Atlanta doesnât seem to have much, if anything, to do with mythical Atalanta, but the name and bow were enough for me to make a link in my mind.
I believe Atlanta is an homage to Artemis
No, I think an homage to Atalanta, a swift-of-foot and chaste huntress who was one of the Argonauts. Atalanta herself seemed to be a parallel or lesser form of Artemis, so I see where youâre coming from, but the name is just too close to be coincidence.
Atlanta is the one who said sheâd marry the first man who beat her in a footrace & then some guy managed it by, like, throwing something shiny in the path and distracting her long enough to get ahead.
To all the people who are saying, âBut this problem is invisible to me, I just donât noticeâ â no, itâs not invisible. Itâs unexceptional. It is accustomed. Itâs âinvisibleâ the way that any one person in a crowd is invisible.
Part of the challenge here actually is getting people to notice. âHey, pay attention. Can you see that? Is it really cool with you?â
I was raised to be a feminist so itâs always come naturally. I was not raised to value diversity and itâs taken a lot of effortâfrom others and from myself because I have to want to changeâto actually see the problems, to understand the implications.
So, @Jainus, when you say you donât noticeâmaybe not? But maybe that kind of not-noticing-the-art is related to the fact that you think âa few more teenage boysâ could generate more revenue than womenâhalf the actual population of the earth, many of whom are adults with disposable income or who control household expenditures and have been proven to play games, especially casual games. That whole market is invisible to you because youâre not noticing.
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