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Delves Blackboard

According to the latest stream. The devs have tried to make Delves easier but the new ideas aren’t balancing well enough to actually be used. (paraphrasing here).

So what I would like to see happen in this thread is to see new original ideas of what could possibly help Pure Faction team balances. Or Delves…or Faction Assaults.

To make this thread actually useful for the devs. I’ll be flagging any posts that don’t offer a new idea or are just here to complain about the Delves, but offer zero solutions.

For instance… adding heros to Pure Faction teams is not a new idea. How will I tell if the idea is new or not?
Easy… I’ll scroll up to see if anyone has made the exact same idea on this thread already.

Personally, my idea is to lower the levels from 500 to 400. And just give the player 100 renown for beating the quest line. So that each Faction can still be worth 2500 overall points.

The reduction in levels won’t make it super easy, but at least 20% more doable and reasonable to use lots of gems or gold on.

Deeds just aren’t available consistently enough to keep up and because folks rarely use 4 unique Faction troops…we barely see a difference in the stat buffs from kingdom power.

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Oh and every Faction should only require 3 rooms to complete the delve.

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We need to unlock at least 1 copy of the pet a lot sooner (like 500 renown). 2000 is ridiculous. This will help those trying for faction 100, 200 etc.

Delves should increase level by 20 each time. This won’t help with faction team but will cut in half the time that delves currently take. Give less sigils in shop tiers to compensate.

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“I’m gonna let you a little bit behind the curtain, is that we had an idea that we wanted to do, and then it turned out it wasn’t possible. So we had an idea to make them easier that we had intended from the beginning, only to find out that we couldn’t do it, which is a real shame… So we have to go back to the drawing board, but the team does have an idea of what they want to do, but it won’t be for a little bit of time because we’ve got to fit it into our update schedules, so please keep that in mind.”
-Salty

As someone who has worked with code before, I can say that adding something is rarely physically infeasible for a computer. Certain types of problem solving, pure randomness, massively complex calculations, maybe something with the UI like what came up before when they were saying they couldn’t make Medals work in the team view, sure those can be problems that can’t be solved, but something like allowing the Hero in pure faction delves (a solution previously acknowledged by Sirrain) is not something that you can’t just slap an extra check on.

Now, not knowing the nature of the update makes it especially hard to speculate, but the change may be impossible for the same reason that the “animation speeds slow down to 1x while in the spell menu” and “you can’t back out of casting a troop’s spell” quirks exist. This is that the code is so obtusely written (moving the game from Adobe Air to Unity was a pain and a lot of the work had to be done by a third party if I recall) that changing the system would have big ripple effects, like crooked blocks at the bottom of a Jenga tower.

Put simply, another game dev would have fixed this literally more than a year ago, instead of letting the issue… fester. Some kingdoms are IMPOSSIBLE to complete pure faction, without dumping massive amounts into microtransactions. Werewoods and Lyraza’s Keep come to mind; were those factions even DESIGNED to ever compete in Delves? It’d be a massive load off if any of them had some obsure condition to get an instant kill or Devour.

Another quote, after @Starlite got on Salty’s nerves…

“I would like to say categorically now, so that I never have to say it again, THAT WE UNDERSTAND THE PROBLEM IS WITH PURE FACTION DELVES.”
-Salty

I understand that this is a tense situation for both sides, but I think this response was kind of unprofessional. You had already calmly addressed the question, no need for the harsh change in tone.

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I didn’t have time to watch the stream so sorry if they have already ruled any of this out.

Now that they have code for weapon restrictions they could allow hero only with weapons from associated kingdom in that delve. (Khetar weapons in Fangmoor, or Glacial Peaks weapons in Mirrored Halls, etc)

I want potions to unlock for regular daily delve runs based on hoard level. 100 horde = Potion of Enchantment for that delve. 150 hoard = Potion of Explosion. 200 hoard = Potion of Rejuvenation… This idea wouldn’t kill spending for Tuesdays and new faction weekends at all either but would be a nice carrot for those catching up with the ever increasing number of factions.

Deed bonus could be increased so the percentage bonus is higher at Deed 12 and 14. They could already be planning to up the Deed power cap beyond 15 though and do that later.

I like the first pet unlocking earlier than 2000, and I also think they could up the relevant pet team bonus to double or triple or beyond what it is now without really affecting the rest of the game much. (King of Seeing for using 4 unique All-Seeing Eye troops, that bonus for 4 pure faction troops could be significantly increased. No one is using pure faction teams elsewhere atm so consider upping that bonus and maybe we’d help pure faction runs AND open up some more teams in other modes.)

There are tons of ways they could (and already could have) worked on improving delves. I hope they read this thread and consider lots of ideas.

It would help if we knew what their failed attempt was so we don’t recommend something even more convoluted, such as using Faction Renown…

A: To keep it simple, faction teams earn 20 points per level, so 250 would max Renown.

B: Or, alternatively, decrease enemy stats by 5% per 10k Renown earned while using a pure Faction Team in a Delve.

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I think it’s pretty clear the issue cannot be resolved with a minor boost in stats, otherwise the recent changes would have already resolved the problem.

There needs to be some more major advantage given to enable the player to progress. Give the player more options for team composition, the most popular suggestions involving the hero, even with some limitations.

Honestly, it’s a lose-lose for them at this point. Anything they put forth now would be met which “Why did you take 18 months to implement this?” It’s their hole they dug, and their hole in which they must lie.

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Depending how it is balanced it isn’t necessarily a small boost though if Deed 12 bonus becomes 50% and Deed 14 bonus becomes 100%. They want us to pump gold into hoards so if they give enough reason for people to do it with potions and percent bonus that could be a way forward.

I’d also like to see them work on the rooms within delves themselves. They could add more positive buff rooms to the mix. They have lots of status effects to play with. I’d consider doing an extra room or two to pick up enrage or snare on skull hits for the rest of the run.

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I think that it would make sense, in addition to global bonuses from fame, to add bonuses only for the underworld and (possibly) only for faction teams. in the image of the tower of doom. thus, it would make sense to gradually climb the levels of different fractions, thereby opening up the path to more complex levels. You can also make sure that every room we go through doesn’t strengthen the enemy, but leaves him, so it would make sense to open more rooms before the last battle. Sorry for my googletranslate English.)

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Keeping in mind that I haven’t been doing pure Faction runs myself, I do like the sound of this. Some nice, heavy buffs like:

  • Potion of Enchantment
  • Allied troops have a 5% chance to summon a copy of themselves at the start of the turn (:man_shrugging: I guess there might be times you wouldn’t want this, though?)

Some of the enemy stat buffs from rooms can be trivial, but things like Tangle and Chill Touch, etc. can be annoying, so I think something a bit better than Regeneration (e.g.) or Skull Death (often unhelpful) would be nice as a reward for taking on a tougher room or the tougher of two paths.

There are two major problems with delves. The events are too long for all but the diehard and the faction runs are getting compounded by getting even harder, by tweaking of the rooms, and RNG 1 shot capable troops who scale up too large.

Rather than comment on that, as the OP asks.

Two solutions.

For events, simple solution is allow for the option of the level that a pure faction run has been completed at to be the starting point on the Tuesdays. So if you have completed 200 pure faction in say All Seeing Eye, it can start at 200. If you have finished it at 300, you start 50 levels below. 350, 75 levels below. 400, 100 levels below. Nobody does pure faction really at any other tiers, and 400 probably is not commonplace anymore.

To allow people to farm, use a skip system for those not doing that, an option to buy in the Tuesday event at say Tier 5, to get the faction head start. Increase the cost of the Tier 5 purchase. (This could be any Tier, or you could even have an option in the shop so it’s not tied to tier to purchase the skip). Make that cost a high amount of gems.

This should help with player health and longetivity, maybe make them more inclined to pay for other things at other times. Gem stocks dwindle, it’s a choice rather than a given every time.

Additionally, in any new event, there’s a chance to buy a start of 100 or possibly 150 by the same skip method, at a cost of gems. Not going to comment on the cost, but it should be high. It will not interfere with new faction events and the game ecomony as they are one time only over a weekend initially. You must complete faction run at 200 in the main event to be eligible for the mode suggested when it comes round again on a Tuesday perhaps. This should be a system where everyone can choose, pay the appropriate costs in gems, and then make the faction efforts more likely within the existing system.

In faction runs, allow the chance to drop a ‘Return to Camp’ in the event, or buy it. As Delves was supposed to follow some kind of system not to dissimilar to Dungeons and Dragons type things, then allow the party to rest, heal up. Pay a levy to give you a chance to obtain a Camp drop before the event. Perfectionists can decide not to do that, those that want to succeed, the levy has to be steep to fit in with monetisation of game modes so that people do not stop doing those.

If you get the camp drop, you can take a timeout and are allowed to add/replace (if one dies) 1 party member from either the faction or the kingdom into the team, and get a 1 time additional bonus to your team, which is not game breaking, maybe an enchant all 1 time, or fortitude to all.

Furthermore, increase daily delves to 4 attempts, in light of the ever increasing factions and let that cost something for the 1 extra daily delve. It could be currency, but another idea I thought of was maybe in a new treasure map feature, you can earn 1 extra delve attempt by doing something in there, maybe 2 vaults. 1 time only.

Finally add a button in the pure faction of a potion icon to show it was completed with potions. If the camp feature is introduced, add a bonfire icon etc. :slight_smile:

Edit - If it’s felt that the option makes it so much easier to complete factions too swiftly, increase the level disparity, to maybe an extra 50 levels difference. So, even at 300 completed pure you only get a start at 200 etc.

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Forget 3->4 attempts. It needs to go much higher now.

For anyone who doesn’t have gems to burn on the events… we have 18 factions, multiply by 49 clears each (there is no 10, we start at 20) and we get to 882. That’s almost 300 days, and that’s with zero errors! Even factoring in the free levels we can nab from the early stages of faction events, that’s too much.

Then consider that newer players do not automatically have access to goodies like Mang and Earth’s Fury and Yasmine’s Pride and Irongut and so on and so forth.

For those of us who have already done full clears (faction or not), we can still clear a new faction before the next one is released pretty comfortably, so it doesn’t really matter if the amount of attempts a day goes up a lot.

Could just double it to 6 a day and nobody would really notice.

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My above timesaver suggestion of increasing delve level by 20 instead of 10 each time would solve this problem.

Getting double scrolls per day is a bad idea because they would have to literally halve the rewards we currently get from each delve. I don’t want to be doing double the work for the same reward.
Also the biggest problem with delves imo is how time consuming they are both in events and in daily scrolls. Getting more scrolls per day only makes this problem worse.

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Tbh the Tuesday event, even at half the time is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too long for the vast, overwhelming majority of players I’m sure. I’m pretty sure only a third of my guild, maybe a tad more at most do it - even to Tier 2, and we are top 12 on Pc/Mobile.

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I agree with above comment on the time involved. The biggest problem with delves is the amount of time required to invest to complete them, and frankly it’s a grind I doubt anyone actually enjoys…
Unfortunately you can’t ignore them even if you’re not a completionist, because eventually the pet affects end game strength where it matters in kingdom stats and therefore GW.
Personally, I would happily pay 2x the gems to not have to run something like lyryssas lair ever again, but assuming we’re not going to just add a buy option for the pets, the best option is to dramatically reduce the time invested for these during weekly and weekend events. Options for “fast start” or “fast advance” have been stated, but my suggestion below I believe is both new and might use a large amount of existing code based on what we see in our daily delve runs.
My suggestion is have the first tier 7 purchase on the Tuesday events unlock the level selection exactly as it appears in the daily delve option. For those of us that have completed the delve a lvl 500, this means we can purchase the necessary number of potions to make the delve remotely possible, then immediately begin our max faction run. Those that want the resources from the low level runs can wait to purchase t7 until they have had enough, or even grind out at lvl 50 to their heart’s content.
Add whatever cost to that first t7 you feel is necessary to sock it to your players, but please make it so those of us with jobs, that have to work on Tuesday… so we can afford to buy gems… can actually make use of the event

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Having completed all of the delves in one form or another I believe there is a process in place for progression and with 4.8 and medal expansion those two offer a solution

The solution I see is that with each delve defeated at level 500 with a fraction only team you should receive a token that increases stats on all fraction team fighting in delves by X. Both conditions are already programmed in game, fighting in delves gets delve troops a boost so that check is in place and all fraction troops is just checking the kingdom. Obviously, X is subjective and would need to be tested for ‘balance’. But if a player is trying to beat a tough delve (Sea of Sorrow/Dark Pits/Fang Moor, Werewoods) you would need a hoard around 250+ so that would be the goal of 2 or 3 medals. Ok so that does not solve the issue of needing to beat one or two delves with a level 500 team with no extra boost.

With a hoard level of 100 the following delves are beatable:

Amanithrax (easy)
Crypt Keepers (need a little luck)
Primal Rift (easy yes even after the legendary room)
Silver Necropolis (need some luck)

So with a little upgrading and tokens you can then get a medal & token to boost overall stats. Which would lead you into:

All Seeing Eye
Mirrored Halls (fingers crossed for a good 2nd room)
Stonesong Eyrie (very random)
The Warrens (very random)
Hall of Guardians

At this point you could have 3 medals to equip and hopefully make your team very strong and then you would have to face the rest of the ugly delves, but with a major boost to stats and some investment in hoard/kingdoms this could be a very achievable path while still allowing someone to drop gems on weekly event to get a token and get past a ‘bad’ delve.

Of course this is not an easy button like some people would like to see but this could offer a very achievable path to beating all delves, providing the player consistent achievement and still offering a challenge as the developers probably intended assuming the medal progression rate is correct.

Just my thoughts and if the delves gave us one more delve in the first tier (insta kill, good scaling troops, summoner etc) this path would be very reasonable. For those that do not attempt fraction only teams you have to get a lot to go correctly to win so the 3 medals should not be an insta win but give you a fair chance to win assuming a good set of rooms and some RNG love.

Just my 2c.

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Here’s a fun little spreadsheet I made, showing how ridiculous it is to obtain the pets. What you’re looking at here is the combinations required to unlock the pets. For instance, you can see that the earliest you can get the pet is by completing the delve with no casualties at 380 with a non-faction team, and also doing the delve with a pure faction team at 360 (you can have casualties there as long as the 380 non-faction run has none). That will give you a combined 2000 Renown, unlocking the first pet. The next pet level unlocks at yellow, then orange, then blue, then purple. Note however that I think one or two of these colors doesn’t actually give you enough pets to actually upgrade it, you still get the pets, it’s just not enough to reach the next level – that one might be purple @ 2400.

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I think its OP idea to make hoard bonus from kingdom level 200% or more. Currently its 25% and 50%.
Remove random skull cascades may help as well. AI already have a combo breaker, may it have no more skulls drop with 2 skulls near?

When I have a delve at level 500, I wish I could play a full faction team at level 200 or 300.

Instead I can select 50, 500, or 490 :thinking:

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The left option should be: play the highest delve you’ve completed with EITHER non-faction or pure-faction, whichever one is lowest. If I’ve completed non-faction 500 but only pure-faction 290, then the left option should be 300.

The middle option should be for the next highest level after the level you’ve completed with losses. So going back to our example, if I completed the delve at 500 but I lost a troop, and the highest level I’ve completed without losses is 450, then the middle should be 460.

The right option should be for the next level after the last that you’ve completed. If you’ve completed the delve at 500, with or without losses, with or without faction troops, it’ll be 500.

This lets me completely narrow down my focus. Do I want to climb the delve with faction troops? Choose the one on the left. Do I want to barrel my way toward 500? Play the one on the right. Do I want to complete the delve without losing a troop? Play the one in the middle.

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