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5.0 Stream Discussion thread (unofficial)

When I wanted to see a stream discussion, I didn’t expect talking about cash flow.

In all seriousness, I’m very conflicted as while I don’t think the elite pass is that bad, I am not a fan of a potential slippery slope. Also, there is no current method shown that once a campaign ends, you can get the mythic immediately with your resources.

Unlike a regular mythic, there is no exclusive period, or current slotted spot in soulforge for it. If you miss it, you are subject to RNG and that is the sin going against the game here.

Zuul is the obvious example to compare, but it is also a different scenario. Orbs have other uses, especially at beginning or mid-level. For leaderboards, you compete against others unless you have a pact to spread out the orbs, but even then the pool is small. The campaign mythic is currently planned to be in chests per normal, which zuul is exempt from.

Zuul will always be there, xathenos will be there, the campaign mythic and other troops/pets/weapons are RNG afterwards. That is the problem to me. It puts the exclusive release behind a pay wall instead of a pay wall as an alternative if you run out of resources.


I think here is where I am at.

I would willingly as I pointed out several posts ago, continue to pay if the service is good.

For me that includes QoL adjustments to explore, medals, team slots, remembering team’s, maybe slots for GW. Medals are infuriating. We will have those silly medals set in GW when we play campaigns.

Faction delves and faction related content, the time to conduct. I’m one that’s never completed a potion run, as I can’t guarantee my time, so am doing the long way round. I’m still spending some gems there, but invariably I leave attempts going begging.

QoL/user experience includes weapon affixes, troop adjustments, paucity of Nysha medals/deeds/treasures.

It includes bugs and translations, consistencies of wording and balance with PvP and team scores, and so on.

They are more important to me than additional tasks, regurgitated from the past, adding more necessity over choice when playing, or at least being contrived to do such as part of the campaign. There’s hope that some of these get addressed, but we have been asking for some for ages.

I also can clearly see that GOW is doing fine and it has changed towards more monetisation over the past two years or so. I have previously subscribed to paying through choice to near Vip 9 - to support Devs.

I have always stated I would continue to support should the game seem like value. I recently posted that I did not see that value. Additionally I now know more about the backdrop towards more monetisation and it’s potential slippery slope towards more (seeing those financials and how big companies operate).

I also know personally from a big company going bust, where I got the majority of my work. They were profitable, top 10 company in their specific sector and they bust everything up because a super investor came calling, seeing their quality in the market, and the large company bust everything to avoid paying their dues. All the bills, including mine never got paid and then the new company came after me for work, as I was in a bespoke area and they did not have anyone on their books able to do what I did. They came for me with squeeze me til I choke rates.

This was a company that bought anything that was good, so it does worry me a little that the corporate control drives the wagon towards more and more profit over quality.


Because it requires critical thinking. And shouldn’t be used as indisputable proof that “the game doesn’t need money.” Whether or not that’s your intention. That’s what most will take from seeing the info. And it puts the developers in an unwinnable situation. Because they aren’t allowed to show their net profit last year. You know after all expenses, how much profit they actually made for 505 Games.
So if Salty decides to comment on the report. But doesn’t show proof. Then she’s automatically judged a liar. Despite proof existing but she’s not allowed to share it.
Does anyone have any clue how much it costs to keep a live game going 24/7? I don’t. And I assume most reading the report don’t either.
Yes what you posted was factual. But it’s one piece of the factual pie and can therefore be taken out of context.

Because that’s what you want to see. And therefore hope that others see as well. Revenue… Is not profit. I’m not the first to point this out.
But it seems like you just want to see it as profit no matter what.

What do BD mean?

Personally I think just because a company is making a lot of money doesn’t mean they should stop moving forward and thinking of new ways and ideas to earn that money. It’s a free country and that’s what capitalism is.

Now whether their customers agree with the new ideas is a different story. If they do then great if not then by all means customers should vote with their wallets. Either way a company should not stop trying out new ideas just because they’ve earned a lot of money. That’s the craziest thing I have ever heard.

What I would really like to see is people here putting their money where their mouths are and quit this game if they really feel this game isn’t going in the direction they want. If that’s what it takes to see the changes they want to see then that’s what they should do. Right now I’m still having fun with it and I see no reason for me to quit but if you are fed up with it then you should let them know by quitting the game.

Pretty sure s/he’s referring to the guild Black Dragon.

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“Anyone with any sense” of accounting knows that profit can be increased or decreased thanks to bookkeeping entries.
Revenues are factual.
We can’t comment on the rest if we don’t have details.


This echos how I feel about this update. As I mentioned in a previous post, I absolutely do not begrudge the developer team or their parent company from instituting another monetization aspect to the game. I am personally not a fan of this particular offering for a few different reasons including the the potential “slippery slope” that has been mentioned by other posters. However, what frustrates me is that for a major update, almost two years in the making, this new monetization aspect is all they really delivered. The can was kicked down the road (or simply thrown in the trash for all we know) regarding every other desired change that has been discussed as nauseam - detrimental weapon upgrades, level 500 all faction runs, arena update, TH update, troop rebalancing, consistency with spell and trait wording, mythic troops rotation in the Soulforge, PvP rework etc.
Had the devs delivered on a few, or even one of these other items, I believe this update would not be looked at as negatively as it is by many of the players. The dearth of anything else at this point is what I find somewhat alarming.
As I said before, the state of limbo where we are told these changes are “in the works” or “upcoming” is agitating for the players. I totally understand that they cannot give us a specific date to date guide as to when these items will be completed and launched but to have a major update come out with none of them is incredibly underwhelming.


Revenue can be deferred too. everything is subject to accounting entries.


No one is debating that Gems of War generated a revenue of 3.9 million euros last year. That’s a fact. And if it’s not a fact then it’s illegal.

To assume that GoW is profitable because of the revenue is where fake news breeds. As in the base of the fact is true, but everything piled on top is circumstantial.

Ok, thanks!

Everything ok boss? Weren’t you the one just complimenting a fellow Thief for obtaining Zuul with f2p resources? Maybe I’m just confused.

Personally, I never spent money on this game before because I didn’t see anything I felt was worth it. (not on steam, so no steam pet offer). If I could Prestige myself, perhaps I would buy DK armor. And join a top tier guild.

This pass seems worth the 10$ to me tho. I could still be a deadbeat if I paid 10$. A deadbeat+ if I spent 25. :smile:

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I can get to a minimum profit number.

Bear with me.

You can actually work out from the half yearly report that the F2P group made gross profit of 2million and 729k operating margin.

By reviewing the F2P accounts half yearly (6 months to December 2019) , we do not have an individual GOW account, we can see that the F2P group made an operating profit of 729,000 Euro from 4 games. GOW made gross 2.595 million in those 6 months. You would argue looking at the financials that the operating costs seem high for the 4 games, true.

Going further down, you see they spent money as a group (group money) on a new studio - DR products, on large investment to bring Hawken and also paid taxes and debts on existing products. Not to do with GOW.

They also abandoned the game Chef Emma at a loss of £346,000 and they had amortisation costs of £324k from loss of asset from previous years go into the half yearly statement. In fact almost 33% of net revenue was lost on depreciation or similar. Not to do with GOW.

So we know that the income GOW generated was three times as much as all the other 3 games combined.

Here’s the base profit number.

We know it is profitable because we can see that the total operating costs of all 4 companies, is £240k less than the income derived by GOW on its own.

So even if we used all of the operating costs of the entire group for GOW, there is still a difference of £240k if GOW involved every cent/penny of the entire F2P division.

Of course the other companies have operating costs. With me, GOW made a minimum of 240k if it had all 100% of the operating costs?

So, that’s the starting point.

Let’s say all 3 other companies = the operating cost of GOW. That’s 240k, fair? Could be on the low side, but aiming low…

We know GOW is running at three times the revenue of those 3 companies. If that split fell that way, so if GOW equalled the operating costs of all 3 other companies. Then we know it already nets 240k plus 1/3rd of the balance of £729k, 243k.

So based on that potentially the profit for the 6 months is 483k.

So, we can say that GOW is profitable for certain, it at least has a profit of £240k, or ½ million per year as a minimum. Put the numbers with some sense, it’s not far short of 1 million per annum.

Costs are already factored in, so salaries are factored into the calculation of net operating margin, so those numbers have already paid salaries to the team.

I looked at the management report for 2020, it’s a similar story, 3.968 million for the year, which means that actually GOW last year made 2,595 in the second half of the year over, 1.373 million in the first half.

So, GOW is largely carrying 3 other F2P games according to the data made public.


At least they dedicate a page in the report for the customer concerns about the game they will be looking into in 2020.


(10 chars)

Deep financial analysis should always be sought on a video game forum.

#1 rule of public disclosures. Dont call out nonprofitable lines. GOW is called out…therefore…


Anyone? Anyone?

Oooh, financials! How exciting! :smiley:

At this point, I’m not sure if any of the devs are reading. But if they are… Please consider upping the free rewards. For 10 weeks of 10 tasks per week, they are extremely stingy. Not even asking to throw in the exclusive stuff, just more gold, maybe a few diamonds, a chaos orb or two… Something to make it look worthwhile. If I were a F2P player, I’d look at those rewards and ask myself why would I bother doing all those tasks? For some stat bonuses that go away just as they get good? Doesn’t seem worth it.